Thread: Identifying overhoning?

Tomorrow I'm gonna attempt my first honing . I have a couple of questions about over-honing, since I expect it's something I'll encounter. I'll be using a Norton 4K/8K.

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

Yea, but describing it a 5 am might be a big challenge. To me the blade feels "too sharp" painful and a little scratchy. It passes the HHT just fine. The next stage it actually starts feeling dull again. Somewhere in there it will feel like your shaving with a shard of glass. It really depends on the amount of overhoning, which is really easy to see with a microscope.

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

Play with it, that's where the fun is.

But keep one sharp razor aside to shave with.

Originally Posted by toolarts

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

HUH?????
I honestly have no idea what you just descibed?????
and I am pretty sure that any Newbie would not either.....

Leofric:
There is a perfectly good, very proven, Norton Pyramid method, that most people start their honing experiences with in the archives (in fact Lynn devised it) to help eliminate over honing..

After you feel very comfortable with honing razors, you might even experiment with the progressive method that a lot of us use...

Very Very light smooth pressure is the key, after that it is just practice...

Leofric, welcome to the world of honing discussions

Jordan

Originally Posted by Leofric

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

Overhoning is a confusing term. To me, an overhoned razor is one that has been honed to death--it has 1/4" wide hone wear on the spine, and it tapers from a 6/8 at the heel to a 3/8 at the toe. That razor is toast. You won't get damage like that from doing a few too many laps on your Norton. That is years of abuse right there.

I think I prefer the term "wire edge" for an edge that is very close to being shave-ready but has a burr on it. You can get this from doing a few too many laps on your Norton, but the razor isn't ruined. It just needs some minor work. You have taken the razor past shave-ready--you "overshot" the mark. Maybe that's where the term overhoned comes from.

Anyway, a wire edge is a thin flap of metal that forms on the very edge of your blade. Sometimes it develops after you do too many strokes on a given grit. Sometimes it's a sign that only one side of the blade is getting honed properly. (This happens a lot, actually. If there's a slight twist or warp to the blade, only one side of the edge will make contact, so the metal will get pushed over to the side that isn't hitting the hone.)

Most wire edges are visible to the naked eye, if you have good eyesight. A pair of reading glasses would help if you don't. Hold the razor under a strong light source, like an incandescent bulb. Turn the razor every which way, watching the way the light reflects from the honing bevel. It should only reflect light from one angle. If you see any light glinting from the very edge at any angle, you've got a problem. It could be a patch where the bevel has a different angle, or it could be a wire edge. Usually you'll see a bright, broken line along the edge if there is a wire.

Under a microscope, a wire edge usually looks jagged. It can also show up as a bright line or discoloration of some kind.

A wire edge will sometimes pass the HHT, but it will usually feel gritty or rough as it cuts the hair.

In the shave-test, a wire edge might not cut at all, or it might cut but feel scratchy and painful.

The pyramid system will help you avoid and remove wire edges. Bouncing back and forth between grits somehow seems to knock the burr off as it develops.

Let us know how you progress.

Josh

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Yeah, I agree, the term 'overhoning' is confusing; I should have used 'wire-edge' instead.

Didn't get round to honing yesterday, but I'll give it a try today and let you all know how it goes.

So, the pyramid system is good for avoiding creating a wire edge? That's great news and I'll definitely employ it. I'd read a bit about it, but thought it was just the optimum and quickest way of balancing your work on the different grits.

I need to work out a couple of very small knicks on my blade, so I'll be doing quite a bit of work on the 4K. After the knicks are gone, I'll do a little back-honing followed by a pyramid system.

You've answered my question (if your edge is sharp but doesn't shave well how do you know if it's a wire edge that needs removing or if it simply needs a little more polishing). From reading the replies, a wire edge will feel jagged/rough/scratchy and probably won't cut. I guess an under-polished edge would just feel unsmooth, rather than painful. You've cleared it up for me. Thanks, guys.

Edges polish pretty quickly. Just for the sake of discussion, if you started by honing on the 4K until the edge was evenly sharp and all nicks were removed, then 30 strokes on the 8K might take you to polished and possibly into the realm of creating a wire edge.

One normal pyramid should be plenty to polish an edge. If the razor still doesn't shave after one pyramid, something is wrong:
- Your techique needs work, and you're dulling the razor during the honing stroke
- The edge is really dull, and you need to drop back to the 4K for a while to reestablish the edge
- You've overhoned it and set yourself back a bit

An edge that is fundamentally sound but just needs some refining will usually pull the hairs as it cuts. A wire edge can do that, too, unfortunately.

There isn't one tell-tale sign as to exactly where your problem lies. You have to look at a few different things to figure out what's going on.

Josh

Simple way to check for overhoning:

1) Wet thumbnail with water or lather

2) Slide razor edge over wet thumbnail from heel to point

3) If edge bites into the nail with a rough or gritty sensation, it's overhoned

4) If overhoned, back-hone for a few strokes, re-check with thumbnail

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than the above.


Scott