Thread: Honing a Double Arrow

if you are looking for the sharpness similar to other blades DA will not get there.It will hone ease and as above mentioned some could have uneven back problem.i have personally honed 2 for srp members and shave was ok on both but not great.I did mention to both members about it.You may making mistake and wanted get the edge similar you used to getting from old blades.it will not happen.I think this is the reason .you sharpen the blade on it is maximum potential and it doesn't act how it should be then you still continue hone ended up overhoning.This is 1 possibilitiy.
Second one are you taping back of the blade?If not you better do so,
hope this helps

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you are looking for the sharpness similar to other blades DA will not get there.It will hone ease and as above mentioned some could have uneven back problem.i have personally honed 2 for srp members and shave was ok on both but not great.I did mention to both members about it.You may making mistake and wanted get the edge similar you used to getting from old blades.it will not happen.I think this is the reason .you sharpen the blade on it is maximum potential and it doesn't act how it should be then you still continue hone ended up overhoning.This is 1 possibilitiy.
Second one are you taping back of the blade?If not you better do so,
hope this helps

Thanks for the tips. I didn't realize it might not get as sharp as older (better?) blades. I didn't tape the spine because it was cheap and at first I didn't think I would introduce much if any hone wear since I thought it would come right up like the others I've honed. By the time I realized how much work it was going to be and the hone wear was starting to show, I decided I didn't care since it was so cheap and just kept at it without the tape. If I go at it again, I'm considering taping it and starting at resetting the bevel yet again (it's not set right now anyway, IMO).

What's funny and ironic is that I actually bought this razor specifically because I thought it would be really easy to hone since it was new, no hone wear, etc. A good "starter" razor to learn to hone on. Boy was I wrong, lol. NOT a good razor to learn to hone on at all, at least not this one.

Originally Posted by pjrage

Thanks for the tips. I didn't realize it might not get as sharp as older (better?) blades. I didn't tape the spine because it was cheap and at first I didn't think I would introduce much if any hone wear since I thought it would come right up like the others I've honed. By the time I realized how much work it was going to be and the hone wear was starting to show, I decided I didn't care since it was so cheap and just kept at it without the tape. If I go at it again, I'm considering taping it and starting at resetting the bevel yet again (it's not set right now anyway, IMO)..

Strange. I recently got a DA and had no problems honing it. I'm still pretty new to honing. I've
only been shaving with a straight since December. I used a Norton 4k/8k and a Chinese 12k. It honed
up pretty quick. Maybe I got lucky and got one that wasn't far off.

It seems as sharp as my other blades. My first razor was a DA from Ken at RupRazor which he honed up.
I used it this morning and got a BBS shave from it. So you should be able to get it plenty sharp.

update:

it IS possible to get a DA sharp enough to comfortably shave with. you have to double bevel it. the metal is not of sufficiently robust temper to hold up otherwise. 2-3 layers of 3mil tape should do it. mine are great now.

however, the shoulder is still a problem. i ground one of 'em off the other day and it was much easier to hone.

oh man... you guys have me freaked out now! bought one form stamps222 last night.

Not another carp razor!

Originally Posted by jockeys

update:

it IS possible to get a DA sharp enough to comfortably shave with. you have to double bevel it. the metal is not of sufficiently robust temper to hold up otherwise. 2-3 layers of 3mil tape should do it. mine are great now.

however, the shoulder is still a problem. i ground one of 'em off the other day and it was much easier to hone.

Yeah, the shoulder was a ridiculous PITA for me. I ended up grinding alot of it down the hard way.. using the DMT 1200 mostly, and then finished with the DMT 325 when I got it. I'll try a double bevel and see where I end up. Thanks for the tip.

I own 8 DA's bought from Stamps222. I like them. I have used them for a number of honing experiments, and they seem to respond well to a wide variety of hones and honing methods. I agree with Sham (hi_bud_gl) that also the capability of the razor is one of the contributing factors to the quality of the edge that can be put on it. But what you describe is not normal. DA's normally hold a very decent shave. If you can't succeed in honing it, there's something seriously wrong.

Originally Posted by pjrage

Coming off of the 1200 grit DMT, I always get both the TNT and TPT to pass, and the razors are sharp already coming off the 1200. Not shaving sharp, but just about the sharpest things I've ever felt before this hobby. Definitely "don't run your finger along the blade with ANY pressure, for any distance" sharp.

Coming of a DMT1200 a razor should shave. Even beard hairs.
Even after the DMT325, a razor shaves. I haven't tried beard hairs after the 325, but it definitely shaves arm hairs.

Originally Posted by pjrage

Not so with the DA. No matter how many passes I do, I can't seem to get it to pass the TPT. It does pass the TNT, but not the TPT. The edge always feels a little dull and coarse.

This is not normal. It would be best to check under magnification, to find out if there's nothing wrong with structural intergity of the steel. All DA's I've seen so far had decent steel, but I don't think the manufacturer does much quality control for the price they're sold. Just to say a flawed blade is a possibility.

Originally Posted by pjrage

I ended up getting frustrated and breadknifing the thing on the 325 grit DMT and then trying to set the bevel again. After about 100 passes on the 325, including some heavy pressure back-and-forth and circular passes and then another 150 passes at least on the 1200 I couldn't even get the razor to pass the TNT along the full length, let alone back to where it was when I moved to the 4k the first time.

I have removed the bevel of all 8 DA's and recut a straight bevel on them, with the use of a DMT 325. On 2 of those, I went to the DMT 600 a little bit too early, and it took me a very long time on the 600 to make up for that. I think on the 1200 it would have taken me even longer. Trying to do neglected work on a hone that's 2 steps too fine, can literally take many hours of honing without success.
DMT-EE: 3 micron - speed ratio: 1
DMT-E: 9 micron - speed ratio: 27 (in one [9 micron]³ fit 3X3X3=27 [3 micron]³)
DMT-F: 25 micron - speed ratio: 512 (in one [24 micron]³ fit 8X8X8=512 [3 micron]³)
DMT-C: 45 micron - speed ratio: 3375 (in one [45 micron]³ fit 15X15X15=3375 [3 micron]³)

This overly simplified math shows that a job takes 125 times longer on a DMT-E than on a DMT-C. Stopping one minute to early on the DMT-C takes you over 2 hours on the DMT-E.

Originally Posted by pjrage

Under magnification, again not that I really know what I'm looking for, it looks like a single smooth bevel and no microchipping or anything on the edge. It looks like what I would expect? (It looked OK/the same under 60x earlier when I moved it to the 4k/8k).

Here's a picture of a W&B I recreated a bevel on last Sunday. Edge was breadknifed, picture shot while honing on the DMT 325.

Looks good, doesn't it?

Here's a second picture, aimed directly at the bevel tip (the narrow strip in the middle).

Clearly still not there. This Wade&Butcher is a wedge. I took me more than 2 additional hours and pressure to complete the bevel on my DMT 325.

I recommend reading GLen's wiki article about bevel rebuilding.
One way to hone an eBay or damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Hope this helps,
Bart.

i got a double arrow from stamps, had no problem honing it, didn't take much at all, i have a 4/8k and CrO pasted strop.

DAs are fully capable of getting as great an edge as any other razor out there. It is rather surprising. It may not be as remarkably smooth shaving as some high-zoot Wunderstahl razor that cost $250, and the guys who own $250 Wundersteel razors may not want to admit it, but if you could somehow do a blind shave test, I doubt many could pick the DA out of a lineup in comparrison with 3-4 other full hollow razors out there.

Here's an edge on one of my DAs, at 200x:


That's damn sharp and smooth. No taping, no fancy honing required.

Here's a Sheffield wedge edge 200x:


One thing you have to be aware of with the DAs is that they are big 7/8 or so full hollow blades, so if you put too much pressure on them when you're honing them, the blade will flex and do wierd things to what you are hoping to accomplish with setting a bevel. They are surprisingly finely ground blades--they flex quite a bit.

Step #1 when setting a bevel with a DA--don't be afraid! It's a $10 razor, so have at it! That troublesome shoulder everyone talks about? Sure it's there---you can either blast through it with your 1200 DMT, or avoid it altogether by honing with a heel leading stroke at 45 degrees.

Once the bevel is set they progress quite nicely. The DAs just hone up with no surprises. That's been my experience anyhow.

I can tell you they hone up more easily than a Friodur does. The Frios can tend to microchip, etc. Here's my latest Frio edge, after wrangling it with all sorts of pleadings. The Frio cost 10x as much as the DA, and was about that much more difficult to hone as well!

But how well do they keep their edges? Just wondering.