Thread: over honed inox razor

Hi, does any one know how many strokes in takes to sharpen an over-honed dovo inox stainless steel razor on a norton 4k/8k waterstone, i've started with 10 strokes on the 4k ,followed by 20 strokes on the 8k side ,using an x pattern and l'm getting no where?

The biggest problem for most new people on the hone is under-honing not over-honing....
You might want to try the pyramid method (in the honing forum sticky) first, it will give you an understanding of how the edge is going to come together on the 4/8....
Start with the aggressive pyramid then switch to the normal one once the edge starts to get sticky sharp...

The progressive method which you are trying now, is sometimes easier to understand but it is harder to master....
On progressive honing you get a sharp bevel, then refine the edge it really is that simple... In your case you would continue on the 4k stone until that edge is popping arm hair easily, and is sticky sharp from heel to toe using the thumb pad test... Then and only then would you change to the 8k and refine that edge.....
The magic marker test here is a great help to make sure you are getting to a bevel...

Honestly pressure is more the culprit for over-honing then lap count, and until you get past your first couple of honed razors I would not really even count laps, concern yourself with learning the stages of sharp first...

If you really think that razor is over-honed do a few back strokes on the 4k and that will clear it up, the pyramid method itself is designed to avoid over-honing by switching between the grits that's why it is reccomended....

As usual, I agree with everything Glen has said (I always do).

I would like to add that I have found that by spending more time and attention on my "bevel producing" hone, in my case it's the 1200 DMT, my razor edges have gotten better and better. I do use my microscope during this proceedure! I have found that I will not proceed until I am absolutely sure the bevel is perfect. - from there, it's just a matter of going through my various stones and finishers to get that perfect edge. For me, the success or failure of my honing starts and ends with the condition of the bevel!!! I hone mostly Ebay junkers, and I will say that many times I have to go through a lot of different honing gymnastics to get that bevel where I want it, i.e., pressure(yes, even at different parts of the blade if needed), rolling stroke (for uneven bevels and even a warped bld now and then), and even circles (I haven't done this for a long, long time).

There is, also, the other side of that coin: where as the edge and bevel is absolutly even, and near perfect. I had two this week from Ebay. I was blown away because the honing took so little time, yet the shaves were beautiful. I keep hearing those words of Lynn, "less is better, less is better" - and I agree with that, but only if you start out with an excellent blade with a perfect bevel to begin with.

One more note (sorry to go on and on). Even though I have spent a lot of time getting this bevel as perfect as I can, many times I have to spendeven more time on my coarser stones than normal - to get to that 16K and eventually my Nakayama polisher/finisher. In this case it would be the 4K & 8K Shaptons on glass. This is probably due to a blade that has experienced over a hundred years of abuse, either from the enviornment they were left in, or many different owners who didn't know what they were doing. Again, I would not move on from that 4K, or the 8K, 'till I was satisfyed my edge was ready for the next finer stone. I used to go "through the motions" in my honing, thinking, "well, I did 50 laps on the 8K, now I should be able to move on"(I was impatient!) - only to find that I had done a poor job of honing, and I needed to go back. So,....is there a point here? Yes! Get that bevel correct, before moving on, and don't move through your different stones until that edge and bevel is completed at that level of your honing.

I'm sorry to make such a big deal of this, but this subject is near and dear to my heart. I have spent many wasted and unproductive hours at the stones because I did not complete what was needed on my couarser hones 1st before moving on to my polishers.

Steve

The whole concept of "overhoning",IMO, is OVERSTATED. You absolutely NEED to get the bevel fully established on a coarse stone BEFORE trying to refine it. Simply put, if it isn't scary sharp off the 4K-it isn't ready for the 8K and then whatever you choice of final prep is.

jules,

To add one more consideration to what has been so well stated above is with the addition of chromium to the blend in order to make steel stain resistant, the alloy now also becomes more wear resistant. So your honing will likely take more strokes than would the average high carbon "non-stainless" razor steel.

All of the above + IMO a strong eye loupe or a microscope is really helpful. If a razor is overhoned you can see it. If the bevel isn't there yet you can see that.

Originally Posted by zepplin

As usual, I agree with everything Glen has said (I always do).

I would like to add that I have found that by spending more time and attention on my "bevel producing" hone, in my case it's the 1200 DMT, my razor edges have gotten better and better. I do use my microscope during this proceedure! I have found that I will not proceed until I am absolutely sure the bevel is perfect. - from there, it's just a matter of going through my various stones and finishers to get that perfect edge. For me, the success or failure of my honing starts and ends with the condition of the bevel!!! I hone mostly Ebay junkers, and I will say that many times I have to go through a lot of different honing gymnastics to get that bevel where I want it, i.e., pressure(yes, even at different parts of the blade if needed), rolling stroke (for uneven bevels and even a warped bld now and then), and even circles (I haven't done this for a long, long time).

There is, also, the other side of that coin: where as the edge and bevel is absolutly even, and near perfect. I had two this week from Ebay. I was blown away because the honing took so little time, yet the shaves were beautiful. I keep hearing those words of Lynn, "less is better, less is better" - and I agree with that, but only if you start out with an excellent blade with a perfect bevel to begin with.

One more note (sorry to go on and on). Even though I have spent a lot of time getting this bevel as perfect as I can, many times I have to spendeven more time on my coarser stones than normal - to get to that 16K and eventually my Nakayama polisher/finisher. In this case it would be the 4K & 8K Shaptons on glass. This is probably due to a blade that has experienced over a hundred years of abuse, either from the enviornment they were left in, or many different owners who didn't know what they were doing. Again, I would not move on from that 4K, or the 8K, 'till I was satisfyed my edge was ready for the next finer stone. I used to go "through the motions" in my honing, thinking, "well, I did 50 laps on the 8K, now I should be able to move on"(I was impatient!) - only to find that I had done a poor job of honing, and I needed to go back. So,....is there a point here? Yes! Get that bevel correct, before moving on, and don't move through your different stones until that edge and bevel is completed at that level of your honing.

I'm sorry to make such a big deal of this, but this subject is near and dear to my heart. I have spent many wasted and unproductive hours at the stones because I did not complete what was needed on my couarser hones 1st before moving on to my polishers.

Steve

Steve,

You just summed up the 4 top reasons for newbie honing failure:

1. They fail to listen to Gssixgun...
2. They fail to complete the bevel before jumping to the high grits.
3. They don't realize that it takes eons doing the work of a previous hone on the next one.
4. They don't realize how little strokes are needed when the edge is ready to accept.

A great write-up ,

Bart.

i think i remember lynn said that any more than 5 passes on the 8k norton is a waste of time thats how many it yakes to polish up a 4000 grit edge on one thats why the pyramid uses 5 pass increments on the 8ooo norton