Thread: Knife honing

At the moment, my ability to hone a razor far exceeds my ability to hone a knife. (Perhaps because razors have built-in angle guides while knives do not.) Murray Carter or Carter Cutlery has little bits & pieces of his $30 honing videos up on YouTube. It looks like he uses a 1000/8000 grit waterstone & hones with straight back & forth motions, then backhones a few strokes to deburr, and finally slices very gently into soft wood to take off the remains of the burr.

What I've learned about razors seems to suggest that you want the scratch pattern to angle back if you do pull-slices, and forward if you do push-slices. Won't Murray's technique result in scratches that are perpendicular to the cutting edge, like a microscopic crosscut saw? Or is that what he wants?

1. I prefer a slicing-a-sticker-off-the-stone motion. Do you have a favorite method? Why?

2. Is there any point in putting an 8K polish (or even a 1K polish) on a kitchen or work knife?

3. What about all those angle jigs? I can do a pretty good job freehand, tho not perfect. But I like the idea of being able to sharpen my knife anytime, anywhere, with nothing but a little pocket slipstone.

4. What do you think about the merits of a polished scalpel edge vs. a rougher, toothier edge for a knife?

First I think going 8k is overkill for a knife, I would go to 4k only for a Japanese kitchen knife, especially if it's a sushi or fish knife.

I have a cheap norton stone (150/320), a small slipstone that is a finer (but I honestly have no idea of the grit) and I just sharpen freehand until I'm satisfied with the result. Then I move to the butcher steel and/or leather strop (not my razor strop, another one).

Scratch pattern?
I don't really care.

Just get yourself some cheap knives made in China or Pakistan and practice.

Hi!

I use a small Easy-Lap diamond abrasive rod to sharpen all my knives. Easy-Lap rates it at 600 grit. I've had it for at least 15 years and it still works as the day I bought it.

They make a bigger one but I find the small one more practical. It can cut slow or fast depending on the pressure.

I have kitchen knives by Victorinox, Henckel and Global and the longest blade is over 11 inches. I believe the global to be the hardest (Ice tempered and hardened to 56-58 HRC according to their advertising).

I can easily get an edge that will shave my arm in a few minutes. Some times I find my knives are too sharp!

I also use an Henckel steel between honings but I did without it for a long time, it just prolong the time between honings.

Cost is about 18 USD, the rod fits in the brass handle and it comes with a leather belt sheath (with a thingy so it can be worn on a belt). The handle is 4.5 inches and the rod 3.5 inches (so it's 4.5 inches when the rod is stored in the handle).

Good day,

McKie

I hone knives freehand on a coticule with slurry.
Circling motions till I can feel a burr all along the edge.
Then I turn it over and hone roughly the same time at the other side.
I check for the burr again (which is always present)
Only then, I raise the angle a degree or two and hone edge leading, very light strokes, till the burr is gone, flip the knife over and finish with about 10 very light strokes.
I test the edge with shaving arm hair.

It's a fast method, unless the knife's edge is seriously damaged. I that case I use a Tormek machine. (basicly a watercooled slow turning grinding wheel)

Bart

Originally Posted by Johnny J

1. I prefer a slicing-a-sticker-off-the-stone motion. Do you have a favorite method? Why?

2. Is there any point in putting an 8K polish (or even a 1K polish) on a kitchen or work knife?

3. What about all those angle jigs? I can do a pretty good job freehand, tho not perfect. But I like the idea of being able to sharpen my knife anytime, anywhere, with nothing but a little pocket slipstone.

4. What do you think about the merits of a polished scalpel edge vs. a rougher, toothier edge for a knife?

1) That's usually considered the best motion for sharpening any tool. Seems to give the cleanest edge.

2) It depends on the knife. If it's a knife with very hard steel, 8k can be fine. Most western style knives won't perform any better above 4k, some even as low as 1k, everything below that is personal preference, but I don't personally like edges that rough.

3) There's no need to use a jig on a knife, and most times a slightly rounded bevel is superior.

4) It depends on what you intend to do with it. Each one suits a different purpose.

Probably the best thing to do is just jump in head first and see what you like.

Have fun!

Originally Posted by Johnny J

1. I prefer a slicing-a-sticker-off-the-stone motion. Do you have a favorite method? Why?

2. Is there any point in putting an 8K polish (or even a 1K polish) on a kitchen or work knife?

3. What about all those angle jigs? I can do a pretty good job freehand, tho not perfect. But I like the idea of being able to sharpen my knife anytime, anywhere, with nothing but a little pocket slipstone.

4. What do you think about the merits of a polished scalpel edge vs. a rougher, toothier edge for a knife?

Sharpening a knife is quite different than honing a razor. Primarily, you need to determine your edge angle on a knife, while it is set for you on a razor (as you mentioned). What should your angle be? Well, that depends on what you're using the knife for, how often you want to resharpen, what type of steel the knife is made of, the width of the spine, and so on.

Most folks use somewhere around 20 and 25 degree angle (which leads to a 50 degree included angle); that's what you get from the factory on nearly all western-style knives. Japanese knives, which are very popular with chefs these days, have a much harder steel and are sharpened only (or primarily) on one side, which leads to a much smaller included angle, and the possibility of much more precision.

1. I'm not sure what a 'slicing the sticker' means, exactly, but I was taught to start with the heel, and swipe to the tip, kind of like what you do to hone a smiling edge, without the roll. That works for me -- but there are as many successful ways to sharpen a knife as there are to sharpen a razor, if not more.

2. I sharpen my knives to 8k, and then freshen on a ceramic sharpening 'steel,' which is around 10k. Why? It keeps them sharper, polished, and the edge lasts longer. And, while I know this is controversial, I don't buy into the 'micro-serrations give you better bite' argument. If I wanted teeth, I'd use a serrated blade. The finer polish gets rid of the microserrations, just like a razor (in fact, the functionality is exactly the same -- do you want to shave with a jagged razor?). And a smooth knife makes smooth cuts with less effort.

3. If you can sharpen a razor to HHT, you can sharpen a knife, although it's a different philosophy, particularly related to burrs. If you're working on regular high-quality knives (like Henckles, Wusthof, etc), you would do well to sharpen them to 22 ish degrees for the max benefit of a lasting edge and a sharp edge. You can figure this angle out by folding a piece of paper in half diagonally, getting a 45 degree angle, and then folding it in half again for 22.5 degrees. That should be the angle you follow throughout the stroke. Some folks just sit four quarters on the edge of their stone, which sets up the same angle for a regular-sized chef knife (this depends on the height of the blade). I don't put much stock in guides and such -- but YMMV.

4. see number 2.

I hope I don't break any rules about other fora, but there are some *really* good knife sharpening tutorials at the The eGullet Society forum, which is for food professionals (but anyone can read them).

Sorry about the long post, and I hope this helps some,

cass

4k for sushi? Cybrok, you'll make no money in the knife sharpening business..... For the true knife nut, look no further than Knifeforums.com. The "Keeping Sharp" subforum is excellent, and you'll also find much info on the "In the Kitchen" forum, where the biggest knifenuts of them all are. Mostly having to do with very hard, narrow angle Japanese knives, the sharpening info is good for all to know.

Russel Baldridge is right - cheaper steel can't handle the very fine stones. 4k for a Henckels or Wusthof about tops things out.

Murray Carter uses a 1/6k King combo stone, but he has very controversial sharpening theories. He purports that grit doesn't matter, and while I can see his point (which is valid on many levels), I feel that higher grit stones get you there much more efficiently.

If you want a cheap way to get a FANTASTIC edge, look no further than a convex edge. Google the "Bark River Knife and Tool Convex tutorial", and you should stumble upon a fantastic thing. There are plenty youtube videos for convex edges also.

I use an Edge pro Apex from edgeproinc.com, and it is amazing. Dead accurate bevels, perfect mirror polishes. Super sharp.

The egullet sharpening tutorial by Chad Ward is great. It's years old and the Q and A session is still going strong. He's a regular on the "In the Kitchen" Section of Knifeforums.

Originally Posted by Ben325e

4k for sushi? Cybrok, you'll make no money in the knife sharpening business..... For the true knife nut, look no further than Knifeforums.com. The "Keeping Sharp" subforum is excellent, and you'll also find much info on the "In the Kitchen" forum, where the biggest knifenuts of them all are. Mostly having to do with very hard, narrow angle Japanese knives, the sharpening info is good for all to know.

Yeah, there are guys out there that do the CrO paste and all.

Those forums are great, but I find that many of the guys in the keeping sharp forum rely too much on an Edge Pro which is expensive and unnecessary for what you can do with plain old stones.

I have to admit to using my Nakayama on some of the knives I've made just for the fun of it, but there really isn't much difference between it and the chinese 12k when it comes to actually putting the knives to use.

+1 on recommending Chad Ward's (the author of *An Edge in the Kitchen*) tutorial on eGullet. And the "In the Kitchen" of Knifeforums.

Originally Posted by cassady

I'm not sure what a 'slicing the sticker' means, exactly, but I was taught to start with the heel, and swipe to the tip, kind of like what you do to hone a smiling edge, without the roll.

Yep, that's what I mean. Imagine there's a sticker stuck to the stone & you're slicing it off.

Originally Posted by Ben325e

The egullet sharpening tutorial by Chad Ward is great. It's years old and the Q and A session is still going strong. He's a regular on the "In the Kitchen" Section of Knifeforums

I've read that before. It is a good tutorial.

Originally Posted by Russell Baldridge

Most western style knives won't perform any better above 4k

I believe it. In Murray's knife-shaving video, he is using one of his own knives, which is presumably why it will take a 6K edge.

Originally Posted by Ben325e

Murray Carter uses a 1/6k King combo stone, but he has very controversial sharpening theories. He purports that grit doesn't matter

And...

Originally Posted by cassady

I don't buy into the 'micro-serrations give you better bite' argument. If I wanted teeth, I'd use a serrated blade. The finer polish gets rid of the microserrations, just like a razor (in fact, the functionality is exactly the same -- do you want to shave with a jagged razor?). And a smooth knife makes smooth cuts with less effort.

These two points are related. If grit doesn't matter, why does Murray use a 1K/6K stone instead of a cheaper & more convenient 600 grit silicon carbide stone from the hardware store? I think Murray is perhaps not very articulate, and what he means to say is, you should be able to get something sharp (though not smooth) even with a crude stone. But obviously a polished edge must be better for some applications, or Carter wouldn't bother with that expensive waterstone.

This somewhat matches my experience with razors. I have shaved right off a 4K edge before & it cuts hair just fine. The problem is it's very uncomfortable. It feels more like sawing through the hairs than slicing them. But if it weren't for the comfort issue, and the fact that the shave is not BBS in all directions, an edge like this actually cuts pretty well. So it's not obvious to me that a knife needs a fine edge (especially if you're going to use it for something like cutting rope). Maybe this is why Murray believes grit doesn't matter for most practical purposes. However, watch his knife-shaving video. For that application, grit very much DOES matter.

My best kitchen knife is a German thing made of flexible spring steel. Using a drizzle of water and a flattened brick*, I can put an edge on it that effortlessly slices thin little slivers off a sheet of paper. It's a coarse, toothy edge, but it's sharp. Would this improve if I bought a 1K/4K stone? Maybe a better question is, would the coarseness of the edge be undesirable for certain applications, like meatpacking? Juranitch says, when a knife is 6" deep in cold beef, you'll know whether it's sharp or not.


* Inspiration came from Carter Cutlery's cinderblock & cardboard video