Thread: Question for DMT users

I just wanted to cover all the bases, if one area of the blade feels "sharper" or just different than the rest, then there are two possibilities; wire edge, or improper bevel.

My technique with the DMTs doesn't seem to produce wire edges, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I tend to use some decent pressure when I need to remove the kind of metal that suits the 1200 DMT, and with that procedure, I've never produced a wire edge. But another guy might use the "almost no pressure at all" method and could possibly form one. I have no way of knowing for sure so I figured I cover that base to be safe.

My last post also alludes to the possibility of forming a wire edge on the DMTs when using a different technique, it happens when I sharpen knives on them sometimes (not all the time), don't really know why.

Thank you all, this is why I'm happy to be able to make posts again. I can ask a question and in less than 24 hours I get a wealth of replies.

Bart- I'm glad to hear you go to the blue from the 1200. I wasn't sure if that was going to work so it's nice to hear someone else is doing it.

Regarding the potential wire edge or un-even bevel I would say both are possible. The blade initially had a pretty nasty bevel, I had to use a sawing motion on some sand paper to remove the bevel entirely. I'm thinking maybe I didn't remove it as well as I thought and now that I'm re-establishing the bevel there are spots that are being sharpened un-evenly.

The width of the bevel is a bit un-even though it passes the marker test along the entire edge so I have to assume the un-evenness is caused by my technique on this hone.

Is it possible that the hone still needs more breaking in? I lapped my blue and ran some kitchen knives over it untill it felt smooth. I ask this because when I first got the razor I removed the bevel as stated above and then used 1k/2k sand paper and then the blue/coticule to get it sharp, with this I had no problem getting it to where I felt I could shave with it. Then I decided the it needed to be prettier so I polished it up with sand paper and decided to use my new hone to re-set the bevel which is turning out to be slightly more difficult than I thought.

If you made it this far I thank you for reading my wall of text.

Imo naturals don't need braking in. Only lapping.

DMT's need breaking in because there might be individual diamonds sticking far out of the honing surface, and they can scratch your edge badly.
If you break them in with a file or a knife, you remove those imperfections, and also clear away any residual dirt that might be on the surface.

Originally Posted by Bruno

TNT is what I expect before leaving the 1000K grit.

you have a million-grit stone?!?

Jcitron,

If you "sawhoned" the bevel away, it will take many (an understatement, actually) laps to reestablish a new bevel. Somehow, doing a high amount of laps on a hone that's a bit to fine for a given task, is more likely to introduce unevenness, than using less laps on coarser hones. For completely rebuilding bevels, I always start with a DMT 325, next the 600 and only then the 1200.
If you haven't got a coarser hone than the 1200, you might be better off using sandpaper on a known flat surface.

I have seen 4 DMT D6E so far, of which one required considerably more breaking in than the others. A great way to smooth out a DMT 1200 is to put a coticule slurry on it and rub a flat piece of steel (like a cabinet scraper) back and forth, with some pressure. (It's also a great way for polishing cabinet scrapers).

The only way to be sure that a DMT is properly broken in, is to check a honed edge for microchips, under magnification. But you generally also feel the edge hitting elevated diamond particles during the honing, and severe microchipping can be felt with a TNT.

I find that a drop of dishwashing saop added to the water allowes for a smoother honing feel, and the water covers the DMT better as well.

I wouldn't take a file, or anythinh with a very coarse grit to the DMT. There's a risk that you pull lots of diamond particles out of the nickel matrix, and that's not the idea of "breaking in".

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

If you "sawhoned" the bevel away, it will take many (an understatement, actually) laps to reestablish a new bevel. Bart.

It's interesting that this topic came up. I have a vintage coticule that has fine grooves worn in one of the corners where the previous owner would have drawn the edge through the groove/s.

I heard Howard Schechter mention the same technique. I have tried it on edges of vintage razors that have small nicks and chips (very small). It works beautifully. Drawing very lightly in a sawing motion at a 45 degree angle on a corner edge of a coticule maybe 10 passes or less makes for a perfectly straight edge under magnification and a great and quick place to start setting a bevel. Nicks and chips.......gone.

I agree with Bart to a degree, since you're widening the actual edge or flattening the edge this way, the amount of time it takes to establish a bevel I've found is probably about equal to the traditional method. Another way to accomplish the same goal.

To be clear, I'm not talking about a sawing motion until the original BEVELS are gone, I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

To be clear, I'm not talking about a sawing motion until the original BEVELS are gone, I don't know why anyone would want to do that. Chris L

Removing a frown, or heavy corrosion from an Ebay junker, perhaps?
I've done it a couple of times, and I thought JCitron was talking about something like that.
The technique you described, removing only the "fin" of an edge, does of course not ask for going to hones coarser than the DMT 1200. I've also done that a couple of times, when ongoing attempts to push the sharpness envelope of a razor led to an edge that falls apart during one shave. The few times that happened was always with a freshly restored razor.
I sand and polish with rotary brushes attached to a drill chuck. My guess is the temper of the thinnest part of the bevel is easily affected by that method. Removing the very edge seems to remedy that problem.

If by "fin" you mean removing a wire edge, I'm not talking about that; I'm referring to creating a clean and straight edge in very short order with simultaneously removing micro-chips and nicks to vintage razor edges thereby making the edge ready for bevel setting rather than honing and honing until the chips are gone. IME both methods accomplish the same thing and in roughly the same amount of time, it's just a different way of doing things. Wire edges would easily be removed in the same manner.

Sorry, I brought this post off topic in bringing this up in the first place. Shame on me!

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

If by "fin" you mean removing a wire edge, I'm not talking about that; I'm referring to creating a clean and straight edge in very short order with simultaneously removing micro-chips and nicks to vintage razor edges thereby making the edge ready for bevel setting rather than honing and honing until the chips are gone. IME both methods accomplish the same thing and in roughly the same amount of time, it's just a different way of doing things. Wire edges would easily be removed in the same manner.

No, with "fin" I'm just referring the finest outer part of the edge. The part that's affected by stropping, and under the right lighting conditions shows up as silver lining at the very edge. (probably just light diffraction). I believe we're both addressing the same thing.
It's my opinion that if you need to remove a bad part of the edge anyway (chips, corrosion,...) it's better to cut to the chase and "sawhone" to clean steel first. It is slightly faster and I feel it leads to a cleaner meeting of the bevel panes.

Originally Posted by Chris L

Sorry, I brought this post off topic in bringing this up in the first place. Shame on me!

I takes two to tango, Chris, so I must claim half of the shame.

Bart.

Well guys, first off I love the aquisition of new knowledge, so if your being off topic allows me to learn more than I am game.

Let me clarify some things. I "sawhoned" the blade because the edge was un-even. I'm not talking about the bevel, I'm talking about the edge itself. Also, it wasn't un-even as in a smile/frown where the center/edges of the blade hits the hone. The edge of this blade looked wavy when viewed from the side, like shaving your face with a shallow sine wave.

Also, I sawhoned the blade well before I got this hone and established the bevel with sand paper and the belgians. What I did this time around was pretty it up some which naturally killed my edge but was still far from the damage sawhoning did.

Last night I decided that I was happy with it passing the TNT test even though it would not shave hairs and decided to move to the blue to see what I get. I think it was Bruno who said he expects the TNT to pass off that grit size and then moves up. Well after about a hundred laps on the blue it was shaving all along the blade. I have since done about 300 laps wet and 200 dry on the blue. (I just like to hone.)

Is it my technique that keeps me from getting a shaving edge on the DMT6E or perhaps the specific razor? This is the first I have tried on the DMT6E, maybe I will get different results with different razors.

You can tell by my long posts that me and my fiance don't discuss my honing in detail and thus I come here to let it all out.