Thread: I have a defective X stroke...

I've been having pretty decent success using my new DMT dia-sharp stones, but only when using straight-down-the-stone, heal-leading strokes. Everytime I try to do heal-leading X strokes, the back of the blade ends up getting sharp (the heel half), and the front half doesn't. I've tried diagnosing the stroke, but I really can't see that I'm doing anything wrong. I'm wondering if I have a few rough spots on the edges of my DMT's that are dulling the edge of the blade when it comes off the edge of the stone.

So I'm wondering.. when you guys are doing X strokes, how much of the blade is sitll left on the hone when you are done with the stroke? I've been doing X strokes to where just the last half inch of blade is still on the hone at the end of the stroke. Is this too much?

I'm also wondering what the purpose of the X stroke is on stones that will fit the entire blade with a heel leading stroke anyway. I can understand using it on stones that are so narrow the whole blade won't fit, but is it necessary on a wide stone?

I do a Rolling X and I roll much more than I X. Two thirds of the blade is still on the hone at the end of the stroke. I lead with the heel and even on a dead flat edge I will roll the pressure point up the edge to the tip by the end of the stroke. This is my solution for even sharpening all along the shaving edge.

X

I'm assuming you use the marker to see how the edge is contacting the hone for the first few strokes? I leave about half of the blade on the hone at the end of my stroke. I think it is in the help files .....there are barber's manuals with illustrations and instructions that I found helpful.

In the barber manual that I read the author recommends the X stroke and says that the blade should have a slight smile for best results rather then being perfectly straight across the edge. He recommends what Xman was describing, putting a bit more pressure at the heel and at the toe in your stroke. This also prevents the dreaded frown from developing.

I have read some members who find that honing straight across is their preferred method and others that swear by the X pattern and believe the scratch pattern the x leaves is more efficient. I am in the x pattern camp.

You think you might have a rough spot on your hone so your worried about your X pattern. Mmmmmm. What kind of logic process is that?

I suppose you should wet your finger and make sure the hone has a consistent feel over the entire hone first, then proceed.

The X pattern is really a Figure 8 pattern with the edge touching down part of the time. Its important to create a consistent and complete pattern when you stroke the blade around. You can create a Figure 8 or you can create an infinity symbol. In other words it can be as vertical or elogated as you desire. If you think the tip is or isn't getting enough action, modify the shape of the strokes.

Some guys never use an x pattern. Maybe you'll become one of them. But, make sure your hone is consistent everywhere before you stop using an x pattern.

Most beginners leave atleast half the blade on the hone at all times so the blade stays flat, but that isn't required. I typically leave about that much because then I can hone without thinking about it.

I think the X pattern is just a pulling motion because your required at some point to use no weight or pressure. I've been, lately, using half the weight of the blade just because I like being reallly good at it. But anyway, I find the x pattern allows for the least weight/pressure because its a pulling stroke. I also find that, as you have so adeptly noticed, its hard to get the entire blade the same. I don't think that is an x pattern problem. The reason I also use an x pattern is so that the flow/motion of the hone always moves from base to tip. I do the same with the strop. I want whatever action that is occuring in the center of the hone, to be the action that is affecting the entire edge.

So, as you've noticed, your entire hone isn't quite the same (or it may be) but with an x pattern you can hit the entire edge with the center of the hone.

Now, if you only go straight down the hone, the base, with your fingers near it, will create a more dished out bottom section. Or it could create a more dished out top section, depending on spine geometry, how the edge is shaped, the stone deformities, etc. The tip of the blade is only going to be honed by the top of the stone. That might not be what you want.

If you want to use a reallly big hone, like a Norton 4/8, and you want to go straight down the hone, just lap it often. You can use a DMT as well. I think those stay pretty true don't they? If so, you can go down the hone.

Originally Posted by xman

I do a Rolling X and I roll much more than I X. Two thirds of the blade is still on the hone at the end of the stroke. I lead with the heel and even on a dead flat edge I will roll the pressure point up the edge to the tip by the end of the stroke. This is my solution for even sharpening all along the shaving edge.

X

I think this is what the old barber's books refer to as "the proper stroke to prevent a frown in the blade". I do the same thing, and I think it works great.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

You think you might have a rough spot on your hone so your worried about your X pattern. Mmmmmm. What kind of logic process is that? It was "It's a poor Artisan that blames his tools" thought... I'm such a newb, I'm thinking it must be something I'm doing wrong, but someone here mentioned he had to take a screwdriver to the edges of his DMT's, so it could be the stones, me, or both.

I suppose you should wet your finger and make sure the hone has a consistent feel over the entire hone first, then proceed. My finger can't detect anything, but there does seem to be a change in sound when honing on certain parts of the stone.

The X pattern is really a Figure 8 pattern with the edge touching down part of the time. Its important to create a consistent and complete pattern when you stroke the blade around. You can create a Figure 8 or you can create an infinity symbol. In other words it can be as vertical or elogated as you desire. If you think the tip is or isn't getting enough action, modify the shape of the strokes.

Some guys never use an x pattern. Maybe you'll become one of them. But, make sure your hone is consistent everywhere before you stop using an x pattern.

Most beginners leave atleast half the blade on the hone at all times so the blade stays flat, but that isn't required. I typically leave about that much because then I can hone without thinking about it.

I think the X pattern is just a pulling motion because your required at some point to use no weight or pressure. I've been, lately, using half the weight of the blade just because I like being reallly good at it. But anyway, I find the x pattern allows for the least weight/pressure because its a pulling stroke. I also find that, as you have so adeptly noticed, its hard to get the entire blade the same. I don't think that is an x pattern problem. The reason I also use an x pattern is so that the flow/motion of the hone always moves from base to tip. I do the same with the strop. I want whatever action that is occuring in the center of the hone, to be the action that is affecting the entire edge. Great information, thank you!

So, as you've noticed, your entire hone isn't quite the same (or it may be) but with an x pattern you can hit the entire edge with the center of the hone. Very cool... now it makes sense.

Now, if you only go straight down the hone, the base, with your fingers near it, will create a more dished out bottom section. Or it could create a more dished out top section, depending on spine geometry, how the edge is shaped, the stone deformities, etc. The tip of the blade is only going to be honed by the top of the stone. That might not be what you want.

If you want to use a reallly big hone, like a Norton 4/8, and you want to go straight down the hone, just lap it often. You can use a DMT as well. I think those stay pretty true don't they? If so, you can go down the hone.DMT says they guarentee them to stay flat and never dish.

Wow... I just learned more about honing in this one post than all the youtube videos I've watched so far (and that's *alot*). Thank you *very* much!

Cool! Its a nice site isn't it? I'm not sure we've really diagnosed the problem yet though. I think we'd need to discuss it a little longer. Given the common issues with beginners (if you don't mind me saying) I would suspect that your creating sharpness with pressure. Which means two things: 1) the rest of the razor is really dull and 2) your going to need to learn to use a flatter stroke.

If you hone a knife, in the beginning the section that gets the most action/pressure is the section that gets sharp. That would (typically) be the section that your holding onto when using an x pattern (near the heel). Later on, when an x pattern is more important, it will be lightening the pressure that will create real (razor type) sharpness.

One thing you can do, as a simple solution, is to simply drop the razor down to the bottom of the hone and just hone the top end a little to get it to meet up with the "sharpness" of the rest of the blade.

After that, go back to the x pattern again and watch for any potential issues. 1) Make sure the blade is getting equal action along its edge 2) Make sure that each stroke is exactly the same (mirrored) per side 3) Make sure that each stroke is equal length and angle. When I started I used a piece of paper with lines on it to ensure that I turned the blade at the exact same spot on each direction on every stroke. The eveness of the strokes is really important. Really, really important. Think of it this way. If one stroke is messed up it'll offset the edge. The two edges have to meet in the same place, exactly. Stroking one side of the bevel less then the other will create a wider edge. A wider edge will feel dull, because in this game, thinness is the same as sharpness.

There is something for you to chew on for a bit . . .

Feel free to send a PM if you have any specific questions.

[quote=AFDavis11;280382]Cool! Its a nice site isn't it? I'm not sure we've really diagnosed the problem yet though. I think we'd need to discuss it a little longer. Given the common issues with beginners (if you don't mind me saying) I would suspect that your creating sharpness with pressure. Which means two things: 1) the rest of the razor is really dull and 2) your going to need to learn to use a flatter stroke. One of the very best I've seen. My results reflect exactly what you said.

If you hone a knife, in the beginning the section that gets the most action/pressure is the section that gets sharp. That would (typically) be the section that your holding onto when using an x pattern (near the heel). Later on, when an x pattern is more important, it will be lightening the pressure that will create real (razor type) sharpness. That would certainly explain why the heel is getting sharp faster.

One thing you can do, as a simple solution, is to simply drop the razor down to the bottom of the hone and just hone the top end a little to get it to meet up with the "sharpness" of the rest of the blade.

After that, go back to the x pattern again and watch for any potential issues. 1) Make sure the blade is getting equal action along its edge 2) Make sure that each stroke is exactly the same (mirrored) per side 3) Make sure that each stroke is equal length and angle. When I started I used a piece of paper with lines on it to ensure that I turned the blade at the exact same spot on each direction on every stroke. The eveness of the strokes is really important. Really, really important. Think of it this way. If one stroke is messed up it'll offset the edge. The two edges have to meet in the same place, exactly. Stroking one side of the bevel less then the other will create a wider edge. A wider edge will feel dull, because in this game, thinness is the same as sharpness. I'm going to go practice this right now. Slow, accurate strokes that are identical each time.

There is something for you to chew on for a bit . . .

Feel free to send a PM if you have any specific questions. Thanks! At this point, I'm so clueless I wouldn't even know what to *ask*. [/quote]

This old blade I'm working on is kind of old and thrashed, so I'm going to be purposely dulling then resharpening until I get this down... it started out as a 5/8's. I think it's closer to 3/8's now.

Thats good! Practice is a big key. Its actually very easy, with two basic rules. Light pressure and equal strokes.

The sound variance bothers me too. Hopefully, someone with experience with these "stones" will chime in. I've never used them.

I do have a tad of experience honing though and I think you'll find it pretty easy after a bit.

You've already got some good advice so I won't add anything other than to ask a question based on your comment about the sound changing.

Did you just remove the DMT's from the box and start honing away...or did you break them in first?