An existential crisis of honing

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Here is a statement that might help you out...

"Every mm of the razors edge must move across the surface of the hone evenly to create a sharp edge"

It does not matter what technique/stone you have to use to accomplish this, it has to happen...

Watch the water at the front of the edge and you can see, and feel what is going on.. That bead of water will move from heel to toe evenly if you are using the proper stroke... Keep that bead nice and even and you WILL eventually get a sharp edge...

I cannot emphasize enough how important a proper bevel set is to the outcome of the final edge...

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READ WHAT GSSIXGUN SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Honing a razor isn't a race. If it takes HOURS to set a bevel-so be it. Use a magic marker and if you can get your hands on a cheap microscope and LOOK at the edge. Once the bevel is set-very little work is required on the finer hones to get the edge shave ready.

If you are short on loot, pick up cheap old ebay razors and PRACTICE. Learning to master honing on a razor with a "SMILE" will elevate your skills dramatically. Most important-don't rush. I have spent HOURS and HOURS with a hone on my lap, a spray bottle of water and a kitchen towel. Take your time-concentrate on the BEVEL. Without a well defined-properly established bevel, you are literally wasting your time.:gl:

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Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

.....with a hone on my lap, a spray bottle of water and a kitchen towel....

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how did i not think of using a spray bottle:gaah: that would make it soooo much easier. thank you!!

Josh,

Upon reading this thread (which is great and full of good advice), I have a few things I would like to add.

1. for the largest part, I have to disagree with English' post. On most razors, once a good bevel is dialed in, it doesn't need to be repeated. Honing becomes a task of refreshing the keen edge on that bevel. You did make things difficult for yourself by choosing a problematic razor, but that has an advantage too, at least if you manage to succeed. After that, you'll know the importance of a good bevel, and you know how to get it.
Nevertheless, for your particular blade, English might have a point. (see point 2 below)

2. There's one important thing, that I didn't see addressed in this thread: the possibility that not only your blade is warped, but that the spine is bend as well. With a "normal" warped blade, the twist is only in the thinner part of the blade, and not in the spine (that should be straight). In that case, the blade finds a stable position for every position during the stroke. But, if on the other hand, the spine is warped too, the bulging side of the blade can rock on all those positions. That makes a consistent stroke very difficult, if not impossible.
I have not seen such a razor yet, but from the information you shared, I think that may be your problem.
Here's what I would try. I first emphasize again that I have not yet tried this and I hope you can confirm the condition of you razor, for others to chime in.
This is derived form a method for making bulging soles on wood planes flat.
Place the razor, with the bulging part down, on a small coarse hone (about1/3 of the length of the razor). No tape on the spine. Tape on the edge. Hone straight back and forth, without flipping the blade. Apply pressure to the spine. Once the belly is gone, hone the spine a bit lengthwise, till it's completely straight. Remove the tape and proceed with a technique for a "normal" warped blade.
Let's here what other's have to say.

Bart.

Wow! Lots more great advice. Curse my busy schedule this week, I want to try this stuff out!!! Bart, that's a very interesting idea about flattening the spine and taping the edge.

While thinking about what English said I realized - to my embarrassment - that I left out an important detail. Some of the razors that I've been trying to work on are razors that I restored, removing a decent amount of metal.

This makes me fear that I've actually caused the problem Bart mentions by removing metal from the spine area unevenly. Fortunately, not all of my razors are ones I've restored. The reason I thought of this is because enjoy the restoration process (trying to make a set of three Henckels #9s) and can do a pretty decent job with the scales and shining up the blade, but can't complete the process. So, many of the blades I will work with in the future will be less than perfect, I suspect. Knowing how to deal with those less than perfect edges is pretty necessary if I want to continue restoring.

In order to actually get back into the shaving aspect I actually share English's sentiments and got a not-so-pretty but shave ready blade from a member here at a very reasonable price.

Bart

I can verify that the spine is a bit out of wack. I did what you described and I think the evidence is pretty clear. On one side of the razor, I can see additional hone wear near the heel and toe. On the other side, I can see additional hone wear near the middle of the spine. To me, it's pretty obvious that there is a slight bowing. I don't plan on selling this razor or anything, so I don't mind silly hone wear and will continue to do this until it seems flat. At the worst, I figure it will be straight when I'm putting hone wear all the way across both sides. And even if I ruin it, well, it's already pretty ruined right?

Once I've got the spine set, then I'll try to set the bevel on the 1k. Apparently this particular razor adds a fourth stage. :P

1. Set the spine!
2. Get a continuous, even edge
3. Set the bevel
4. Sharpen to taste

I figured I'd provide an update in case anyone is following this thread because they're in a similar position with a razor.

I believe that after a lot of work on the spine I now have a spine that sits flat on the hone. I took a few laps on the 1k and it definitely felt like it was making better contact, but the water bead seemed to be telling me that it was still not flat on the stone. At first this was very discouraging, but then I realized (correctly, I hope) that it should be expected. Since I had the edge taped while working on the spine, the spine may be straight but the edge is still warped as it was completely untouched.

What I plan on doing next is to do the magic marker test with some swooping X-strokes to get the little smile and the heel. This will give me a baseline of which parts are hitting the hone. Then I'll hone a bit and repeat the marker test. Hopefully more of the marker will disappear this time. I expect progress will be slow, but if I can see the marker shrinking that will give me the resolve to keep going until I finally have an honest to goodness bevel.

Another update and a question. Hopefully people are still reading this thread! :p

With a gentle rolling X stroke I appear to be getting good contact with the hone. The MMT under 100X magnification shows shiny metal all the way to the edge on 99% of the razor. The edge itself also looks pretty even. The only problem right now is that it won't get sharp!! It only catches the occasional arm hair and doesn't really bite during the TNT.

So here's the question: could the above description mean that the bevel is forming but that the left bevel and right bevel have yet to meet in the middle?

Now I'll just cross my fingers and hope I'm not talking to myself. :gl:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

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The only problem right now is that it won't get sharp!! It only catches the occasional arm hair and doesn't really bite during the TNT.

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(TNT: A sharp edge with well set bevels will dig in and/or drag across the nail with a smooth, even sensation.)

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So here's the question: could the above description mean that the bevel is forming but that the left bevel and right bevel have yet to meet in the middle?...

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Sounds like it. You need to pass the TNT on the entire edge before going to a higher grit. I'd stay on 1k (4k max) until it does.

Keep using the rounded edge of your wide hones, very lightly. A narrow hone under one inch width is what I usually use on a warped edge. It's basically the same idea as using 2 rounded/chamfered/radiused edges ≈ an inch apart. Try not to drag the tip of the razor off of the hone, it tends to round the tip.

Okay, I'll keep doing what I'm doing then, trusting that if all the marker is going away I've got a decent stroke going.