Thread: Now I get what Bart's been saying...

I've read every word I can find around these parts about coticules, and what Bart has said really stuck in my mind...

According to Bart, coticules will finish off at a certain sharpness. However, if you are able to get a blade sharper than what you can on a coticule, and then take that blade *to* the coticule, the coticule can then improve the blade's smoothness without affecting the level of sharpness. I hope that made sense.

So I've been testing his theory... I've sharpened two blades from start to finish on the BBW/coticule combination, then gave them each 50 linen and 50 leather. I then took two more blades to the coticule with water. One of these had been finished on the Shapton 16k, then 50 on .25 diamond on a pasted paddle strop. It's a known good shaver. The second one had been finished on the Shapton 16k as it's final step. Again, it was a known decent shaver. Both of these blades did 100 laps on the coticule with water. Then 50 linen/50 leather. I took all four blades to the shave test.

The two that I honed start to finsih on the BBW/coticule were smooth, but not as sharp as I like.

The ultra sharp blade (that had been finished on .25 diamond) was much more smooth, while still retaining it's ultra sharp edge. This one was by far my favorite.

The Shapton 16k -> coticule with water blade was much smoother than it was previously, but still not quite as sharp as I'd like.

The point of all this is that, IME, Bart has it nailed: a coticule is capable of refining/smoothing blades that are sharper than what the coticule itself can produce. *Noticeably* so. And my particular coticule finishes a blade to a smoother level than what I can get with the shapton 16k.

Now to pit that coticule against the Shapton 30k tonight....

Yes, it took me a while to get my mind around the fact that you can smoothen an edge sharper than what a coticule can produce, on a coticule.

What's interesting to me is that you consider the edge produced by the Shapton 16k and then smoothened on the CWW to be insufficiently sharp. The razors Bart and hi_bud_gl honed for me on Chosera 12 k finished on CWW and CWW and Escher were too keen for my liking, digging into the skin here and there at the slightest angle hesitation.

Originally Posted by Cornelius

Yes, it took me a while to get my mind around the fact that you can smoothen an edge sharper than what a coticule can produce, on a coticule.

What's interesting to me is that you consider the edge produced by the Shapton 16k and then smoothened on the CWW to be insufficiently sharp. The razors Bart and hi_bud_gl honed for me on Chosera 12 k finished on CWW and CWW and Escher were too keen for my liking, digging into the skin here and there at the slightest angle hesitation.

While everyone wants the smoothest possible edge, there is variance in the optimal keenness for any given face/beard combination. Also the personal shaving style and temperament define how one wields the blade on his face, and also that places specific demands upon the edge.

FloorPizza, it's nice to see my findings confirmed. Thank you.
I am currently working on a Wiki article that goes deep into the finer points of honing on the Belgian hones. Good luck with your 30K. Don't forget to finish its edges on your Coticule. (I'm not even sure I'm entirely joking. Not that I have any experience with the Shaptons)

Kind regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Cornelius

Yes, it took me a while to get my mind around the fact that you can smoothen an edge sharper than what a coticule can produce, on a coticule.

What's interesting to me is that you consider the edge produced by the Shapton 16k and then smoothened on the CWW to be insufficiently sharp. The razors Bart and hi_bud_gl honed for me on Chosera 12 k finished on CWW and CWW and Escher were too keen for my liking, digging into the skin here and there at the slightest angle hesitation.

Yeah, I like 'em sharp! If you have a shavette, you know the kinda sharp I'm talking about. Shavette's are so very sharp that they will punish any pressure, and are prone to cause weepers. However, when they aren't making you bleed, they zip through whiskers like crazy. For me, I get less razor burn if I use a very sharp blade at a very low angle. This seems to whack the whiskers without removing as much skin. The bummer is that sharpness and harshness are closely related; it's hard to have a really sharp blade that isn't harsh. It's a very small target to hit, that ultimate sharpness to smoothness ratio, but it sure is fun trying. Glen is capable of getting that kind of edge off of his Shapton 16k, but I'm just not that good yet... I stilll have to fiddle around with pastes. Not that I mind, really, it's all fun.

Originally Posted by Bart

While everyone wants the smoothest possible edge, there is variance in the optimal keenness for any given face/beard combination. Also the personal shaving style and temperament define how one wields the blade on his face, and also that places specific demands upon the edge.

FloorPizza, it's nice to see my findings confirmed. Thank you.
I am currently working on a Wiki article that goes deep into the finer points of honing on the Belgian hones. Good luck with your 30K. Don't forget to finish its edges on your Coticule. (I'm not even sure I'm entirely joking. Not that I have any experience with the Shaptons)

Kind regards,
Bart.

I'm looking forward to that article.

I have two razors picked out (two Boker Red Injun 101's) for tomorrow's test. One is going to be finished off on the 30k, the other will get the Coticule with water after the 30k. That green coticule of mine is such a fantastic finisher, it should be a close race.

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

For me, I get less razor burn if I use a very sharp blade at a very low angle. This seems to whack the whiskers without removing as much skin. The bummer is that sharpness and harshness are closely related;

You and I must have the same face.

Chris L

i admit that a coticule-finished edge is nice but the 0.25 micron diamond on balsa is noticeably nicer, and the 0.1 micron diamond/balsa nicer still. you really notice the difference between merely sharp and super sharp when you do low-pressure ATG strokes.

also...
paste on balsa > paste on linen > paste on strop

the harder surface of the balsa wood gives the edge a flat-V finish as seen under the microscope, and the improvement over the strop finish is noticeable when shaving.

Generally speaking, once you take a razor to a very keen but harsh feeling edge then go back to a lower grit to smooth it out. The first time I found this was when I took a razor to the 0.25 diamond stage and then went back to a 0.5 chrome ox. The result was a much smoother edge.

Try it!

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Generally speaking, once you take a razor to a very keen but harsh feeling edge then go back to a lower grit to smooth it out. The first time I found this was when I took a razor to the 0.25 diamond stage and then went back to a 0.5 chrome ox. The result was a much smoother edge.

Try it!

Big difference.

It sounds like those that went beyond the bbw/cot finish got a lot more time.

those that were taken to higher grits and pastes got 100 more laps on the cot? I'm asking because it is a little hard to follow the description.

That is a lot of sharpening action.(on top of a lot) Did you correlate the feel with the look under magnification?

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Generally speaking, once you take a razor to a very keen but harsh feeling edge then go back to a lower grit to smooth it out. The first time I found this was when I took a razor to the 0.25 diamond stage and then went back to a 0.5 chrome ox. The result was a much smoother edge.

Try it!

Thanks for that, Randy, I'll give it a shot!

Originally Posted by kevint

It sounds like those that went beyond the bbw/cot finish got a lot more time.

those that were taken to higher grits and pastes got 100 more laps on the cot? I'm asking because it is a little hard to follow the description.

That is a lot of sharpening action.(on top of a lot) Did you correlate the feel with the look under magnification?

Yeah, my description wasn't very clear, and kinda hastily written. All the razors got the same attention on the linen and leather. 50 each.