Thread: Belgian Blue 8k

Originally Posted by charlie762

All I know is I already had a 4k BBW and this new one is a different stone.It feels smoother and harder.Also, when I flattened the 4k. stone I stuck sandpaper onto a black marble surface and produced a slurry in no time but when I did the same with this new stone it took a while with hard rubbng to produce just a little slurry.
Now I'm more cofused than ever.

Those are natural stones and they differ piece from piece. No two coticules are the same, no two BBWs are alike. Rob from Ardennes Coticule said that they have currently nine active veins for coticules and each one produces very different hones (all being yellow though).

PS: Coticules are softer than blue stones. Way softer. They need shale base or BBW for durability.

It is indiferent if you have a hard or a softer stone.
Garnets size are the same.
The clay medium is different, probably and the garnets density.
As for finishing if you keep the softer stone always free from slurry you must have approx. the same results with the hard.
But it is easier to use a harder stone as a finishing stone and you have more consistent results with it.

But keep in mind that grit (garnet) size of a natural hone is not comparabile with that of artificial hones.
A belgian blue (4000) is not replace a norton 4000

This, is my oppinion only.

Originally Posted by Yannis

I believe that a Belgian blue produces a same result of 6000 to 9000 artificial stones, depending of the use of slurry or water only.

But 6 strokes are insuficient for this type of hone
My oppinion is to try begining with 30-50 with slurry and finish with 30 -40 with water only. If needed increase the number of passes with slurry and
keep the finishing strokes with water only to 30-40

Originally Posted by Yannis

No, not only the density but and the size of garnets is different
In the blue are 3-12 micron and red in color.
In the coticule are 2-8 micron and translucent white



Belgischer Brocken, Schleifstein, schärfen, Schärfstein, Abziehstein
Go to " INFOS "
Then go to " Mikroskopisches Ergebnis der Schärfpaste des BBB´s... " for the belgian blue
and " Mikroskopisches Ergebnis der Schärfpaste des GBB´s... " for the coticule

That's good information.

The university of Liège (Belgium) has done scientific research on Coticules and Belgian Blues, that indeed are closely related.
The garnets in Coticules were found to be in a range of 5 to 15 microns, and the garnets in the Blue were found to be in a range of 10 to 20 microns. (That's 50% to 25% bigger).
Trying to give them a grit rating makes no sense. The garnets are completely different than the abrasive particles used in most synthetic hones. They're round, do not spilt apart while honing, and create a very smooth and shallow cutting pattern, that is wider than any synthetic hone used for comparable purposes. But the width of the scratch pattern doesn't really matter. It's the depth and the acuteness of the scratch pattern that defines the smoothness of an edge. By the way, 15 microns compares to 800 (that's 8 hundred) grit in synthetic hones. It is clear that is a ridiculous comparison.
The Belgian blue is not a coarser hone than the Coticule, in my experience. In fact, I have strong suspicions that the bigger garnets actually penetrate the steel less deep than those of the Coticule. That would explain why it cuts so much slower than a Coticule. Even with a thick slurry, it still cuts way slower than a Coticule with a thin slurry. I use a Coticule for tasks that I used to perform on my DMT 1200 grit, with better results within a comparable time frame. That is completely out of the question on a Belgian Blue.
But that same Belgian Blue (with slurry) will take the edge a level further on the keenness scale, after it maxes out on the Coticule with slurry. I have run more than enough comparative tests to stand by that statement, and before me Josh Earl and Heavydutysg135 came independent of each other to very similar conclusions.
For finishing I always use a Coticule with plain water (+ a drop of dish washing detergent), but I also tried to finish on a Belgian Blue with water a couple of times. The shaves were quite comfortable, but the Blue with water does seem to remove some keenness if you do too many laps, while the Coticule does not (not even after well over 100 laps).
I speculate that running a razor over a surface (any surface) with the edge leading, is going to deteriorate the edge just a little. If that surface abrades some steel of the bevel sides at the same time, it is going to make up for that and preferably even gain something.
I think the Blue with water is sooooo sloooooow that it deteriorates the edge faster than it sharpens it. If you want to use the Blue for finishing, I'd keep it under 20 laps.

When used with slurry, the Belgian Blue is an excellent hone for refining the edge after the bevel is formed on a hone with sufficient cutting power, such as most synthetics in the 1K -2K region.
You can use the diluting slurry trick on the Blue, but I recommend diluting a bit faster than on the Coticule, let's say 2 drops of water per 5 laps over a total of 50 laps. On the Coticule my preferred diluting ratio is approximately 2 drops of water per 10 laps over a total of 100 laps, or even slower. Either way you first must stay on a milky slurry till the keenness maxes out. (One needs to master a proper interpretation of the TPT or HHT to recognize that moment)

So far, I have not found much differences between the various Blues I have used. The variety in Coticules seems bigger.

Best regards,
Bart.

I got my belgiums from invisable edge and he told me the blue and yellow are both the same hones but the yellow cuts a little quiker as we all no. I tryed using the yellow on a razor that shaved well i used yellow with slurry only thin and it did turn my razor in to a non shaver i could tell the yellow with slurry defanatley took the edge from shaving to not shaving i could'nt believe it i did 100 passes on water and the razor shaved the water improved razor.Still not as good as i'd like so i did the blue slurry may be 100 passes and yellow 100 water and razor infact all my razors shave great with this combination i have tryed shaving straight of blue and it is fine but i like to finish on yellow with water as it can only improve the razors performance.Since then i have never used yellow slurry i think if you only have bbw which that is what you defanatley have there is no reason why that hone should'nt give you great shaves.better than the yellow with slurry and then water

To try and clarify - and I have had speaks with Rob Cialis of Ardennes on this - in use i believe the BBW cuts as finely as a coti, just slower. In their official literature Ardennes state that 'In 1996-7.......we discovered a high quality whetstonewith IDENTICAL (my block caps!) sharpening properties as the yellow whetstone but obnly blue in colour, which derives from deposits of iron oxide. Almost 30% of its weight is garnet, as opposed to the yellow which has approx. 40% garnet. This means that it works just a little slower'.

I have, in use, found the BBW to give a different feel to the coti, which has a 'buttery' feel when slurried-up. The BBW tends to feel much more like a stone - it's difficult to describe. I find the BBW A1 for blades like the Wapi and some Dovo SS blades, finishing very well with a smooth, slick edge. The coti tends to e better on carbon blades. BTW nowhere does Ardennes state that the garnets are different size, just that they are 'Spessartit Garnet crystals'. Rob Cialis has confirmed to me that the above statement is true. I rate both stones very highly and use them on an everyday basis for my professional honing work.

I guess the answer lies in the user's hands - no doubt other users will employ different methods to mine in terms of technique to achieve the same results. One thing I will state with absolute clarity: I never, EVER recommend or offer for sale any product on any of my sites until I am satisfied as to its quality and effectiveness. Period!

The quality of your products or your integrity was never in question. Your reputation is excellent here. He just bought himself a stone he already had by accident & inexperience. There is a wealth of information available here & it get's a little hard to stay on top of!
It is amazing how different they feel. I can relate to the buttery feel you describe & i too hone my stainless with the BBW & then skip to a thuringian or Ch 12k with fantastic results.

I have to say i do like the feel of the bbw better than the yellow coticule and over all i think the belgiums hones are easy to use and you get more than good results well i do steve at invisable egde has honed a razor for me and i have purchasefd a shave ready razor vintage and a wapi and they are as sharp and smooth as you will get and i do believe they were honed on belgiums.

Originally Posted by blueprinciple

To try and clarify - and I have had speaks with Rob Cialis of Ardennes on this - in use i believe the BBW cuts as finely as a coti, just slower. In their official literature Ardennes state that 'In 1996-7.......we discovered a high quality whetstonewith IDENTICAL (my block caps!) sharpening properties as the yellow whetstone but obnly blue in colour, which derives from deposits of iron oxide. Almost 30% of its weight is garnet, as opposed to the yellow which has approx. 40% garnet. This means that it works just a little slower'.

They say "identical sharpening properties", but at the same time they also say that the Coticule has a grit rating of 6 to 8K and the Blue of 4K.
I too have spoken to both Rob and his father Maurice Celis, the owner of Ardennes Coticule.
Allow me to quote an email of Maurice:
"Beste Bart,

De korrelgrootte van de BBW is groter: tss 10 en 20 micron voor BBW en tss 5 en 15 micron voor Coticule. De gele stenen slijpen inderdaad fijner maar dat is amper te merken. Ook met een BBW kun je een scheermes slijpen. (...)"

"Dear Bart,

The garnet size of the BBW is bigger: in between 10 and 20 micron for BBW and in between 5 and 15 micron for Coticule. De yellow stones indeed hone finer, but the difference is barely discernible. A BBW is apt to hone a razor. (...)"

I once asked Rob why they gave a grit rating to their stones, which is in my opinion more confusing than helpful. He said it would otherwise be hard to market the hones on the modern market that seems to expects quantifiable numbers.

I agree with Ben.mid that Blueprinciple's integrity is beyond suspicion. I just think the information on the Ardennes Coticules website tries to guide the proper audience to their outstanding products, with offering simplified information. In my posts I was merely trying to elaborate on the finer points about the Belgian tandem. If anyone got the idea that I was criticizing "the Invisible Edge", then I humbly apologize.

Bart.

What about this - a grey stone from the Belgian Ardennes region which is rated the same as the yellow, except harder...

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

What about this - a grey stone from the Belgian Ardennes region which is rated the same as the yellow, except harder...

Regards,
Neil

I believe that this is a "diferent name" of belgian blue.