Thread: Smooth vs. sharp

Originally Posted by sparq

Same here. My whiskers are fairly tough (I have lotsa curly brown hair on my head and I like the just-right sharpness off a bbw/yellow progression. I've tried the CrO and while it produces wicked sharp edges, I much prefer the old good coticule.

For me, smoothness and comfort of shave is the ultimate goal. Sharpness is a good and necessary milestone but not the ultimate prize.

+1 for me too.

I'd like the Shapton 16k, but I hate lapping those damn stones :P. I wonder if a shapton like that would require lots of maintenance like a norton for example. Right now I have a DMT 1200 and a Belgian combination so I don't have to lap very often.

I'm a little confused.

A razor has to be sharp or it won't cut. My test for this is the against the grain cut. If the blade is not sharp, it will snag and stop.

A smooth razor slides comfortably over the skin.

Sharp is to do with the edge and smooth is to do with the bevels.

In my experience the Escher or Escher type hones (not Thuringiens) have a finer grit than the coticule and produce the sharper edge and smoother edge.

It's interesting we all have different experiences and for me it just tells me that no two natural hones are alike.

Originally Posted by Dups

I'd like the Shapton 16k, but I hate lapping those damn stones :P. I wonder if a shapton like that would require lots of maintenance like a norton for example. Right now I have a DMT 1200 and a Belgian combination so I don't have to lap very often.

It is recommended to lap the shaptons every time before you hone and even in the midst of a progression if you are doing a lot of honing say on more then one razor at a session. They are a polymer and will change just sitting in a cool dry storage area. The DMT 1200 will get ruined if you do a lot of lapping on it so you would need a 325 or coarser if you didn't want to run into trouble later.

Originally Posted by English

Sharp is to do with the edge and smooth is to do with the bevels.

In my experience the Escher or Escher type hones (not Thuringiens) have a finer grit than the coticule and produce the sharper edge and smoother edge.

It's interesting we all have different experiences and for me it just tells me that no two natural hones are alike.

+1 on the last sentence. I cannot however agree with the words above. In my books, smoothness == "the ability of the edge to differentiate between skin and whiskers while effortlessly cutting the latter" (Bart used these words IRC).

Smoothness has not much to do with bevels IMO and there is more than grit size to it (i.e. the smoothing qualities of "near-ball" shaped garnets in Belgians). It is the shape of the very edge that matters (serrations, scratches, burr,..).

I recently posted that I used a Dragon's Tongue to touch up some razors (that I normally finish with diamond pastes down to 0.25 micron on balsa.) The first test shave showed a less sharp edge, but I still got a great shave (with 4 passes.)

I've test shaved with another of those razors and got the same result. Definitely less sharp than I am used to, but very smooth, no cuts, nicks or irritation. And close with 3 passes.

I've since lapped the DT a bit more, maybe I can improve on those results.

At the moment I think I prefer a sharper edge. But it was a revelation that you can get the same results using a different approach.

Originally Posted by zib

I'm curious, Do you have A Vintage Escher with Labels, or a Timber Tools Eshcer. You also mentioned Thuringian. Do you have one of those as well? I'm trying to get feedback on the lot....

Both of my thuringians are vintage and "Celebrated Water Razor Hone" stones. One is a yellow/green with the label affixed to the back of the stone, and the other is in a little box with the label on the inside of the lid.

I've had great success with my thuringians, but I think it depends on the razor. This particular razor seemed to respond better to the coticule with my skin. I've had great success with other razors and my thuringian, but would I get a better performance off the coticule for my skin? So many variables! But it's fun trying.

What my skin prefers might be terrible for someone else, as long as it works for me I'm happy!

With a tough beard, I still prefer the smoother but less close shave tradeoff I get using BBW/Yellow, rather than BBS with tiny cuts and irritation. That is my usual result from just using a Thuringian or Shapton to finish honing. I do go against the grain and the coticule honed edge definitely feels smoother and less irritating to my skin. Your results probably will vary with how you hone and your beard type, of course.

There's the beard to be cut.
And the skin to be spared.
There's the hand of the man that guides the razor.

That's the riddle that holds the answer to the ideal edge.

Aiming for as sharp as possible off the hones, preferably sharper than you need it, and next experiment with different finishing hones, sure is an excellent way to find your favorite edge. In any case, it is much better than going to the finishing hones too early.

About Coticules, they create a relatively wide but gentle and very shallow pattern, imho, leaving a quite unique shaving edge. They absolutely reach their prime when you can impose them on an already very keen edge. But it never gets better than when I can walk away with exactly the same results off just one Coticule. It does not happen every time, but that makes it all the more fantastic when it does.

Bart.