Thread: Newbie ? on DMT/BBW/coti progression

Greetings all,
I'm totally new to this and have learned a lot from this excellent forum, but I think I'm finally stuck and in need of some experienced opinions.

Here's the background. I'm trying to bring at least one of my razors to a shaveable state. I have a new Dovo and an Ebay W&B (bought to practice honing without ruining the Dovo). For hones, I have a DMT 1200, a BBW, a coticule bout, and a linen/leather Dovo strop. I'm not sure, but the coticule seems quite hard as it takes real pressure with a slurry stone to produce any slurry. I tried to do my homework first, so I hope this is a sufficient set-up.

On the Dovo: I set the bevel with the DMT 1200 and water, finishing with some dishsoap. It cut arm hair and seemed sticky on the thumbnail. From there, I have tried various progressions of BBW and coticule. My last was coticule w/ slurry, BBW w/ slurry, coticule with water, stopping on linen, stropping on leather. I haven't counted passes but have leaned toward more than fewer. I don't have enough experience with the TPT to use it well, but the razor usually cuts a hanging hair cleanly on contact with a hint of a tug. The hair doesn't just fall in two, however.

On the W&B: Same as the Dovo, except that I omitted the coticule altogether, using only the BBW, linen, and leather. The W&B tests the same with a hanging hair as the Dovo.

Both razors seem about equally sharp when shaving (if you call it that). I can get though both WTG and ATG passes on cheeks and neck without much discomfort, but I can't do either on the chin where my beard is thicker. WTG passes seem to leave the equivalent of 1-day stubble, and ATG passes pull more than I would like.

I know my inexperience means there are a lot of variables here, but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I could do for greater sharpness. Thanks very much!

you are lapping on 1200?

all i know of the bbw is it makes a fine backing for a coticule. I think it can be very tricky going from a very hard diamond plate to a relatively soft middle stone like bbw- it will take some practice. they need to match flats so try lapping just a little more often rotating the bbw more often during long spells.

why did you leave out the coti?

it's also a little tricky going from the softish bbw up to the hard coti. make sure you have if torque to the edge. not heavy pushing but a definite twist to get the edge on the hone.

If you are shaving that well, i suggest staying on the coti linen and leather with daily stroke count til you get where you want.
Should a gotee develop you may want to listen to someone else

Without having the razor in hand it's hard to say... but they are probably less sharp than you'd really like. When I find I'm not quite there on my edge, I go bit by bit with the coticule and water... a few laps each side, test edge (TPT or popping hairs) then a few more... repeat... repeat... until it's where I want it... I prefer doing few laps, then checking as opposed to lots of laps.

A few things for your consideration.... I think the TPT really made sense to me only after training my thumb on a pro honed razor, and some brand new double edge razor blades. That might help you a bit.

Also, I would like to see some pics of your wade and butcher... depending on the model and condition, it could be a better shaver than your DOVO (maybe don't use that one as your test honing razor... also, depending on the grind it could really take you a long time to learn from honing the butcher (heavy grinds will be harder to hone than the DOVO... IME)


Oh yeah... almost forgot... don't leave out the coticule... it is one of my favorites for sure (I admit that experience with hone types is limited.. but I love the coticule)

Have a look on the wiki forum there is a simple method with dmt bbw coti. use your dmt untill tnt literaly you can feel so much resistants don't be worried about to many laps all you would is waste metal. once resistance is high do 100 to 150 on bbw with light slurry gradualy dilute then yellow 100 light passes on water if your coticule is hard it should be good polisher i use method it works. dense slurry will not give you a very fine edge you must always use very light milky slurry and dilute towards finishing honing with ultra light passes.

Hey Oak,

I'm pretty new to honing myself.. and I use about the same stones as you do.. I made some mistakes that frustrated me in the beginning..
I didnt break in the DMT to start with.. the DMT if not broken in properly will leave deep scratches is in the bevel that will make the razor cut your whiskers but it pulls them out as well.. (it will probably pass the HHT)

The second mistake was that I started honing on a wedge... without tape it was not success.

The TPT is pretty hard to learn I'm still improving that one..I can feel if its way off but not if its shave ready sharp or just barely sharp enough to cut my skin.

If I find that the razor shaves but not good enough for an ATG pass.. I will go back to the BBW with slurry for 50 laps and then 50 on the coti with water and then strop of course. if that improves the shave but not enough I repeat those two steps on the hones. If it doesnt improve it might be the bevel thats not set complete so that means back to the DMT..

good luck and have fun honing

Maarten

doesnt the BBW with slurry smell nice

I would also encourage you to read A simple honing method with DMT-E, Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki and some of the other articles in the honing category. Learning to use a BBW/Coticule takes time and patience...

How did you brake your dmt in? i just ran old razor up and down mine for athew hindred laps and qukly laped a my norton i don't no if that would be ok. by the way i do exactly what you said just go back to bbw then yellow untill perfect works fine

I'm not sure but I did a bad job at breaking it in.. I didnt break it in at first (didnt know I had to) then I lapped the BBW with it and the coticule.. after that I considered it broken in.. but I'm just a newb to honing so I'm not sure that did the trick.

Maarten

I think you're on a good track. There are 2 things that come to mind when I read your post:

1. Slurry in a Coticule removes steel well and can be used for bevel correction work (minor or more depending on the particular specimen). BUT... it introduces its own sharpness on the edge, regardless that edge was sharper or not. Everytime you go to the Coticule with slurry, you have to realize that you are performing a reset to that keenness. It shaves, but not very well.
In that perspective, Maarten gave you sound advice, imho: try to go back to the BBW with a light slurry, followed by 50 or so laps on the Coticule with water.

2. An edge that comes off a Coticule with water, really needs to receive a good first stropping. You need to aim for a very distinct improvement of the HHT, when you compare between pre- and post-stropping.
I always start with 60 laps on clean leather. In the majority of cases, that meets my expectations. It took me a long time to really master stropping well, and I can guarantee you that it makes a big difference. It does require a hanging strop, and for some reason my red latigo strop dissapoints me for this kind of "first time stropping". My Dovo "Russian" leather performs much better. If leather doesn't give me the improvement I'm after, I add linen, usually 60 laps as well. I sometimes use 5-10 laps on a CrO pasted paddle strop.

Good luck,
Bart.

Thanks for the good ideas. Some things for me to try: lighter slurry on the BBW (mine may have been too thick), breaking in the DMT and starting again.

My strop is a Dovo "Russian" leather as you mention, Bart. I softened it up a little with a pumice stone, but my stropping may need work also. Also, I noticed how wide the bevel was on the W&B since it's not a very hollow grind. Adding two layers of tape helped on that front.

The DMT/BBW/coticule article mentioned is actually why I got the stones I did; a well-written piece, IMHO. Now I just need to master the technique... Thanks again.