Thread: VALUE of a first hone set.

I want to put together a set of hones that will take me from setting a new bevel, to REASONABLE polishing. (I don't feel the need to go to a 30k hone ever)

I've read the stickies, and I've read the wiki, and I've googled, and I've trolled, and there seems to be so many options for hones, and so many WILDLY different opinions on what the best setup for honing is, that it makes my head spin.

Cost is no object, but value is. By that, I mean that I don't mind paying twice as much money for something that is twice as good, but I don't want to buy a $200 hone that is only marginally better than a $50 hone. I hope that makes sense outside of my head.

I also have no interest in owning a particular hone just to say I own it. It's a tool to me and nothing more.

I understand that I'll need a 1000 or so for bevel setting, and I really don't need any coarser unless I'm fixing a trash blade.

Having read up on the various honing techniques, and having plenty of experience honing all sorts of other things, I'm more comfortable with the pyramid approach.

So, I guess what I really want to know, is if there is a real and compelling reason to get anything more expensive than a 220/1000 norton combo, a 4000/8000 combo, and an ebay barber hone (a real one, not a zeepk) for polishing.

I know that there are a lot of people around here who spend HUGE amounts of time and money collecting rare and "special" stones, and will go through a series of 6-8 different hones to hone a single razor, and that's not what I want.

I just want to take a blade that I've cleaned up, sharpen it, hone it, and finish it.

I think you could argue that the Shaptons or Naniwas would be an improvement over the Nortons that would justify any increased cost. I also think that a pasted or sprayed strop (chromium oxide or diamond) would be an imrpovement over the barber hone. Having said this, I would also add that what you are describing was pretty much the basic setup for a long time and will certainly work fine. I would add a DMT 8C foe lapping the stones. They all need it initially and from time to time.

The shaptons or naniwas (unless I'm shopping in the wrong place) would cost roughly a third more.

Are they really that much better? This is where I'm going with the "value" thing. In what way are they better? Is it in ease of use, being more idiot proof, or do they require less maintenance, or really put that much better of an edge.

As for the pasted strop, I have been having the same thoughts. I have a very heavy linen canvas strop with white paste on one side, and red on the other, and after 1 week of stropping and shaving with bad technique, 10 passes on red side brought the edge right back to where it was when I bought it here in the classifieds.

DMT 8E (1200 grit) - $50. Your bevel setter.
Norton 4k/8k - $75. Your sharpener and polisher.
Chinese 12k - $35. Final polisher.

The only thing I would add to that would be a chromium oxide pasted strop. You can make yourself a balsa wood paddle strop for under $10 and buy some chromium oxide from Chris L.

That's your no frills no thrills easy to use inexpensive thorough hone setup, that is, IMO, probably the best "value" out there.

Another option would be to switch out the Norton 4k/8k for a BBW and coticule. IMO, the bbw/coticule combo is a better setup. The coticule leaves a "smoother" edge that I personally like better. Since you want a really good value, though, to be honest, I'm not so sure that the BBW/coticule setup is enough (if any) "better" than the Norton setup to "for sure" warrant the extra cost. To get the prices even reasonably close, you'd have to be looking at a 6x2 bbw/coticule, but it's still going to cost at least 50% more than the norton. I don't know if the edge off of a coticule is 1.5 times better? Especially when evaluating the edge is very subjective. I think you'd find more people (regularly) shaving straight off a coticule than straight off the norton 8k, though, so you might consider forgoing the chinese 12k if you go with a bbw/coticule, and that would help to get the cost more or less even. Then it's a matter of which edge would be "better" - that off a norton 8k followed by a chinese 12k, or that off the coticule. I think they each have their fans.

I can't comment on the naniwa stones, but I've heard they are very good. I'm not sure if they provide enough additional value to warrant the additional cost over the nortons or not, though.

The norton 4k/8k is a good starter hone in any case. Many many people have used it so when you need advice, people know exactly what to expect from the stone and can help you out. There are many documented guides to using it and it's tried and true. You could always start with it and when you start to get a bit of a case of HAD, pick up a bbw and coticule (or something else) and sell off the norton if cost is an issue.

This whole honing thing is largely personal preference. There are so many factors involved that it's really hard to assess the true "value" of a lot of these hones, particularly the natural and/or rare/expensive ones. The bottom line here is that any of these hone setups will get a razor "shave ready", but some setups will leave the edge just a little sharper or just a little smoother, or both. ALOT smoother or sharper? Not really, but definitely enough to notice, and in some people's opinion, that little bit is well worth whatever the cost is. This is why it's so hard to assess the real "value" of these hones, and why HAD is running rampant around here

In the end, they are all going to get you to the same basic place, so if you just want the tools to get the job done, I say get the first items I listed, and go from there.

I do not know your shaving needs but for the biggest bang for the buck to a razor that is sharp and a smooth shaver.

1. A DMT 8C for lapping stones.
2. 1K Shapton
3. Coticule with slurry stone. Takes care of 4K with slurry and 8k just wet.
the feedback and edge that you get will be very nice.
4. 16k Shapton stilling using a stone and the stability that you get is very
good

Thanks to both of you for the quick and on-point responses. This is all along the lines of what I was already suspecting, and it's good to know I'm at least barking up the right tree.

As for HAD, I can't possibly allow myself to contract it. I'm already getting an RAD itch, and between that and my rampant NAD (Nikon Acquisition Disorder) I can't even afford the space, let alone the cost to start collecting hones.

Originally Posted by riooso

I do not know your shaving needs but for the biggest bang for the buck to a razor that is sharp and a smooth shaver.

1. A DMT 8C for lapping stones.
2. 1K Shapton
3. Coticule with slurry stone. Takes care of 4K with slurry and 8k just wet.
the feedback and edge that you get will be very nice.
4. 16k Shapton stilling using a stone and the stability that you get is very
good

This was another option I considered, but it seems like pyramid honing would be pretty much out on a coticule. Am I wrong? Is a progressive on coticule as good as or better than a pyramid on wet stones?

Once I set a bevel on a 1K, all I use is my BBW/coticule. It works for me. I was over at JoeD's place last weekend, and we did some honing. I did one blade on the Nortons and one on the Belgins. It was the first time I really used the Norton 4K/8K, and it's certainly a differet feel from the BBW/coticule. Both did the job quite well, though. I think it's really all about personal preference there. I'm also not really sure you even need the BBW, since the coticule with slurry cuts faster and is also finer with just water; that said, I still use my BBW every time.

I actually have what Riooso listed minus the 16K. I like the shaves off my coticule just fine (though I did also pick up a C12K to play with since it was so cheap).

After double checking a couple of things, I have 2 concerns about the coticule that give me pause.

First, they're about 60% more expensive for an edge that, from what you say, sounds like it's only marginally better.

Second, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that using a 1.5" wide stone, and depending on slurry would be less consistent than an oil or water stone that is nearly as wide as the length of the blade.

Doesn't really sound like a good bang for my buck.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

After double checking a couple of things, I have 2 concerns about the coticule that give me pause.

First, they're about 60% more expensive for an edge that, from what you say, sounds like it's only marginally better.

Second, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that using a 1.5" wide stone, and depending on slurry would be less consistent than an oil or water stone that is nearly as wide as the length of the blade.

Doesn't really sound like a good bang for my buck.

There's no reason that a narrow hone would be any less consistent than a wide hone. I think a lot of people actually prefer a narrower hone as they can be easier to work with, particularly with smiling or warped blades.

I can see where you might think that using slurry vs not would lead to inconsistent results, but in practice, I haven't noticed this. Since you almost always thin the slurry down to just water, you end up at the same point in the end.