Thread: Belgium Coti vs. Norton 4k/8k

Yeah, I am sunk.

Yesterday's near perfect shave and the fact that I was indeed done and had to put my razor away . . .and had nothing else to shave . . .well, SAD RAD and all.

I am now looking to get set up with doing my own honing. Yeah, I have that naging back surgical but that might be more of a polishing the edge type thing - if at all. Actually, I have purchased several cheap razors on the bay and they all look high carbon to me. I am going to restore them and they are going to need honing - or the whole process, bread knife dull an uneven edge, create a bevel, hone, etc. No sweat, I am ready for all that.

Question is, Norton or Coti? I like Bart's post a lot. I like going natural and basing a slurry. BTW, a "Coti with slurry" sounds like a diner special in some part of the world . . Anyway, For bevel setting, edge creating, honing, and finishing, it seems like the Coti is the thing. Best Sharpening Stone inc on eBay has some pretty amazing prices too.

Any words of wisdom or thoughts?

Thanks,

The Alpsman

I would suggest a Norton 4/8 and a coticule but I'm a confirmed HAD sufferer..... or enjoyer depending on your perspective. Seriously though. I had very good luck with the Norton in learning. The coticule is a great hone of course. You could experiment with Bart's method with the coticule, Lynn's Norton pyramids and you could use the coticule with water only to finish after the Norton 8.If it was to be one or the other I would vote for the Norton for beginning honing.

Personally, I prefer a BBW/coticule over the Norton 4/8K, but I can see how the Norton would be easier to learn on. The Norton is more consistent, and you don't have to worry about slurry or the variations that occur in natural stones. Either way, it'll be a great learning experience and a lot of fun.

I think the nortons would be easier to use if you're just starting to hone. Coticules are great, but I think it takes a more experienced hand to use them to their full together, whereas nortons are more reliable IMO.

I have a couple of coticules AND nortons. I only use the coticules for polishing the edge now, and the nortons for the bulk of the work. For me the nortons are more fool-proof, but I'm sure if you were to get a nice coticule and slurry stone you'd be well off too.

I say get the norton 4k/8k AND the coticule. But if you were to only get one, my vote is for the norton.

Aside from agreeing that the Norton and the coticule would be best, you might want to consider two more hones, or another combo hone. If you are taking your razors through breadknifing and you go the Norton route, then you are in for a long haul if you are going to try to establish the bevel on a 4k. You should also consider getting a Norton 1k. You could also get a Norton 220 to speed it up more. I don't like them, but if you prefer combo hones, Norton makes a 220/1000 combo hone. Now the good news is that as the grits get larger (lower numbers), their prices get cheaper.

Do you see how this hone acquisition disorder can set in?

For the few extra dollars the Norton Starter set about $115 on Amazon with the 220/1k and the 4k/8k with a lapping stone is really tuff to beat oh yeah I think it still has free shipping...
Now once you master that set you can add any finishing stone you want to it...

The other advantage of the Norton is as you can see almost everyone on here has used one and knows how to use it, so help is readily avaiable...

You know you might want to price out the Naniwa line at SRD too and see what that is going to run because those are some nice stones.... it might be worth a few extra dollars to get that full set....

I pretty much agree with the others... the nortons are great to learn on, but now I prefer the bbw/coticule (and still dmt 8e for bevel setting, although I may be moving on to coticule only bevel setting, haven't decided). I haven't touched my nortons in a while.

One thing to add is that I find the edge off the coticule to be better than off the 8k, so if you go with the nortons, you might want another finisher such as a chinese 12k or even a coticule. The coticule makes for a nice smooth shave. I like to hit the pastes after mine, and really, that's all you'd 'need' IMO.

To be honest, if I had to do it all over again, I would do the same thing I did, which was norton 4k/8k combo, a chinese 12k, and a dmt 8e (1200 grit). And then take it from there. This was a great learning combo and I'm not sure that I would appreciate my other natural stones as much without having tried those first.

Hmmm, seems to be a general consensus here and I thank you. However, I should have provided better info - sorry about that. I don't know if it will alter your recommendation - which of course I will follow.

1. I have a very soft Arkansas stone to bevel with (220 g).

2. Really can only afford one (1) stone this year.

3. I have good experience honing knives (from scratch, ie. from dull, creating progressive angles, honing on ceramic to polish, etc). Never done a straight razor so I bought a $13 SR on the bay this week to practice on before I attempt anything on my DOVO or Henckels.

So,

Option A = I bevel with the soft, use the Norton 4k/8k, and finish with 100 careful passes on my watered black surgical to "finish" as it were?

Option B = I bevel on the soft, use a slurry on the Belgium Yellow Coti (following Bart's) progression, finish on water only, then dry as a finish.


Thanks for voting,

Alspman

Originally Posted by Alpsman

Hmmm, seems to be a general consensus here and I thank you. However, I should have provided better info - sorry about that. I don't know if it will alter your recommendation - which of course I will follow.

1. I have a very soft Arkansas stone to bevel with (220 g).

2. Really can only afford one (1) stone this year.

3. I have good experience honing knives (from scratch, ie. from dull, creating progressive angles, honing on ceramic to polish, etc). Never done a straight razor though

So,

Option A = I bevel with the soft, use the Norton 4k/8k, and finish with 100 careful passes on my watered black surgical to "finish" as it were?

Option B = I bevel on the soft, use a slurry on the BBW (following Bart's) progression, finish on water only, then dry as a finish.


Thanks for voting,

Alspman

Just to clear one thing up... the BBW and coticule are different. The BBW is a Belgian Blue Whetstone and is blue, and the coticule is yellow. They are mined from the same region, but have different properties. The coticule with slurry actually cuts faster than the BBW with or without slurry, and the coticule with just water also finishes finer than the BBW. The BBW is usually used with slurry during the sharpening stage, but Bart's recent research is starting to phase out the need for it (potentially) by basically using a much more watery slurry on the coticule which seems to achieve the same (or better) results as a BBW with slurry.

If you were to get only one (as in Option B), it would be a coticule (to follow Bart's progression). Based on his most recent postings with his "one coticule honing" idea, you could get away with only the coticule. I assume with your arkansas stone you meant 220 grit? If that's the case, then you really wouldn't be using it on your straights, unless they needed some SERIOUS work. Maybe some particularly bad ebay specials. The good news is that you can set the bevel on a coticule with slurry.

You may have known all of this already, but since you mentioned using a BBW as option B to follow Bart's progression, I thought maybe you might have the two stones confused, and didn't want to see you end up with the wrong stone for what you are trying to do!

Anyhow, to answer your newest question, based on the fact that you really are only looking to get one stone at the moment, I would say go for the coticule. You may (or may not) have a little steeper learning curve, but that one stone really can do it all as Bart has proven, and the edges off of it are all you need. If you aren't completely satisfied with the edge, you can further refine it by building a balsa wood paddle for < $10 and then buying some chromium oxide from Chris L. So, based on your situation, I would say grab a coticule, at least 6x2, IMO.

Interesting how opinions change over time. I used to pitch in on the side of the naturals & be very lonely amongst all the norton recommendations.
Since Bart did his study the naturals seem to be viewed as a far more versatile set up than they once were!
I have no experience on the Norton, but do love the BBW/Coticule.
If money's an issue, keep an eye on the classifieds & get whatever is the right price, both will do you very well. (As long as you choose the naturals!)