Ok, guys ...

I am really struggling with this honing bit.

I am using a norton 4/8K with a 12k chinese as a finish hone.

I set the bevel (when needed) on 1k sandpaper.

I've tried the pyramid and just completely excessive laps on the 4k, 8k, and 12k.

Still, my edges come out just so-so. I can shave with them, sure. But the real shaving seems to go on ATG with some removal on the WTG pass. Sure, it shaves .. with some tugging and some razor burn. My edges do not pass any sort of hair test, unless I place the blade on the skin and actually shave the arm/leg hair.


I know this is not an ordinary knife, but I've sharpened many knives before ( and shaved with them) and never had to put on 1/4 of the laps I am using on a medicore honed razor.

I know I am probably not the only one on this site with this problem. Heck, I've watched other members sell their gear over this very issue.

I know it takes a while to learn how to get a good edge ... but this isn't rocket science either. Good, light pressure for me means many more laps with out any sort of result to show for it along with wear to the blade.


How many blades have others destroyed before they got their edges to be 'one pass shave ready'?

I'm on about 7 and counting.


I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha.

Everything seems to be working fine except the edge doesnt get sharp.

I feel like I am wasting my time sitting in front of these stones for 45 minutes per blade and not developing an edge I can shave with.


Actually, after 45 minutes, I usually stop honing the blade because I know I am wearing the blade excessively and not because of the edge being keen.

After these sessions, the edge(s) do not show any signs of overhoning whatsoever.

It is as if my mere touch of the razor dulls it.


Then, when I go and finally get an edge I can shave with, it lasts about 5-7 shaves before it becomes completely unusable.

Seriously ... WTF?


I do like shaving with the razor. I actually enjoy it when the blade is sharp. Spending hours just watching my razor become worn away isnt my idea of fun.

< / rant>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whiskers

My edges do not pass any sort of hair test, unless I place the blade on the skin and actually shave the arm/leg hair.
their gear over this very issue.





< / rant>

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Thank you for letting us know above sentences. Makes a lot easier to help you. Your blade is NOT shave ready. What are you doing it hurting yourself.
the stones which you have you can definitely get your razor shave ready condition.
At first i have never used sandpaper and can't say anything about it.
I think if you start with 4 k and could set a bevel will take a little longer.
This is the most important start. you have to have bevel set first.
Some people says you will get hair pop up from your arm when you done with 4 k.
then you can move to 8k.
lastly 12k this will need at least 100-150 laps remember this is slow cutting stone. if you have chro2 will help too.
sign which you need to see is this.
Your blade will cut hair approximately 1 cm above the skin and when hair cuts it doesn't pop up it just falls down next to blade or on the blade. this means your blade is ready for shave.
As usually the best test will be shave test.
you shouldn't have any problem when you shave no pressure at all.
Lastly i don't know how long have you been shaving with straight but if you are never had any razor honed by people who knows what they are doing please do so. you can see that edge and compare your work to it.
Hope this helps.

I've had a blade honed by Lynn, oso I know what sharpness is acceptable to shave with.

I just cant get close to that sharpness with the stones I have.

I've tried just honing on the 4k (after cutting the bevel)to get the arm hair popping test. Literally, I've worn off about 1/3 of the blade trying to conduct this and it still hasnt happened.

I know that the 4k stone is abrasive, sure ... but to conduct the hair popping test I need to wear away a minor amount of the steel to get the edge.

Basically, I do laps on the 4k without anything to show for it except worn nubs that used to be razors.

What gives?

Maybe very hard steel, so you'd need a very soft stone like a King for the bevel.

This is going to likely take an exchange of a lot of questions and answers to get this sorted out. Some may seem patronizing, depending on your knowledge level but they will be asked with good intentions.

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

Are your hones lapped?

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

Are you taping the spine?

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

Are you stropping?

Utopian asked a lot questions lets see answers first. 1 more do you use any pressure when you hone? if yes then don't put any pressure. we wait your answers.
Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

My recommendation, get a DMT 1200 for bevel setting. Your other stones are fine. I use them and get SR blades every time.

In my trials and tribulations, i found that if i did not do enough work at the bevel setting stage. I was in for a world of frustration.

And have very light consistent strokes at the norton 4k and beyond is very important.

If you are passing the marker test and TPT when setting the first bevels, I would suspect too much pressure on the finishing strokes. The marker test can also be used on your final 12k hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whiskers

I've tried just honing on the 4k (after cutting the bevel)to get the arm hair popping test. Literally, I've worn off about 1/3 of the blade trying to conduct this and it still hasnt happened.

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This is why some of us say the hair-popping tests should not be given too much weight.

I've said before that I can't pass those tests even with super-sharp Feather DE blades. You simply can't assume that failing these tests proves a problem.

The thumb-nail test (at 4K) and thumb-pad test (beyond that) are better tests. The marker test is also great.

See answers below in red. Thanks for taking the time. I dont find it partonizing one bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

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Yep. Watched a few of Lynn's pyramid videos. I believe I understand the theory behind it. Never once got it to work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

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Absolutely. There is alot of differences between the two, although once focused on just the bevel, there is alot in common between the two. The rationale of bevel cutting and refining is similar. The techniques (and tools) to achieve them are quite different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

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It's quick. It's available. It's inexpensive. How I understand it ... setting the bevel defines the geometry of the edge. Cutting a new bevel exposes new steel and ensures the bevel is, in fact, correctly defined. This definition is the basis for any edge ( knife, razor). Generally speaking, advancing up into grits will refine the bevel to a keen edge. Sure, I could linger on a 4k for about 10,000 strokes ... so anything like this is possible. It just takes alot less time, effort and energy on lower grit abrasives.

I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels. I use it wet because I find the abrasive on the paper wears consistently. That last bit is only speculation/opinion on my part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Are your hones lapped?

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Yep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

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Tried both, actually. I find I get more wear on the blade if I do straight strokes. Besides that, I cant tell the difference regarding what they do to the edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

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The blade seems to increase in sharpness uniformly when I do straight strokes and the blade isnt warped. The sharpness I get off of the 4k is enough to shave hair, but not nearly enough to do what hi_bud_gl defined in his above post. Honestly, I feel that passing this test is possible with any razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

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Some wade and butchers, a couple Henckels, a wosty, one shumate, two wapi's, a Boker, and a few no-name wedges lay in my wake of destruction. I thank God for Ebay and cheap razors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

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Funny. I went out today and bought a combo loupe that is good for 10X mag. I feel as if I should be inspecting the actual edge for continuity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you taping the spine?

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I have, yes. Specifically on some of the wedges and on the shumate. To me, the sharpness doesn't seem to have the longevity when I tape the spine. Not a big fan, to be honest. When working on the 4k and others, eventually some of the tape will wear off and clog up the hone. Taping the spine doesn't seem to work when I set the bevel on sandpaper, either. The tape self destructs and I am left with steel anyways. For me, it seems like more trouble than it's worth most of the time. Ever try to clean a hone loaded with electrical tape particles? The only way I know how to remove them is to lap. Thats just what I bought the stone for ... wearing it away with sandpaper. ( note the sarcasm)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

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A few ways. First way I used was to simply look at the blade on the hone. Then I began to monitor the water on the honing surface as I was honing. I am looking for a small ridge of excess water to be pushed by the edge during the stroke. In my mind, this means the edge is contacting the hone. The other way I use is to mark up the bevel with a sharpie, run a few strokes and check the bevel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

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Yep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you stropping?

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It's funny. With this straight razor shaving, I am learning to take everything piece by piece. I am pretty confident my stropping is ok, but I do not strop because I want to eliminate that variable. Therefore, I do not strop. The edge is a bit harsh, but I am confident that the edge I am shaving with is from the hones. To me, it is a good idea to isolate the honing to ensure I am honing correctly .. or in this case ... wtf is up with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

1 more do you use any pressure when you hone?

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Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

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Thanks for the encouragement. How many razors did you destroy before learning how to hone?
It seems that I bought a set of rocks to make small piles of steel ... well .. smaller.

Here is your quote Whiskers: "Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results. "

The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

You do not want to use excessive pressure- enough to create a wider bevel, but enough to keep the razor on plane.

I use pressure directed to the edge with a slight twisting torque. I have never damaged tape so perhaps that can guide you.

finally at the end use some of those ultra-light touch strokes

then strop. I discovered that it takes much much practice to get an equal to stropped edge without stropping.

With a proper use of some cloth and hide you may discover you really have been wasting your time as you were there all along best of luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whiskers

I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels.

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Stop doing this. This is likely a major source of your problems. You should only need to go to wet/dry sandpaper if you're removing major chips from an edge *and* you have mastered use of the traditional hones; it is not a substitute for a stone. Wet-dry sandpaper cuts very quickly but creates a badly ovalled bevel. This is an acceptable trade-off if you're removing nicks, but is a disastrous course of action in just about every other situation, since it removes way too much steel and destroys the bevel.

The key to successful honing is being as gentle with the steel as possible.

i read all your answers.
let me answer to your question first. this is really funny,.
when i start to hone i was back honing. i have never seen in my life forward honing. i was thinking this people are crazy and was laughing a lot.
sooner or later i realize i am the one is crazy.
Anyway hope this will guide you.
Now i think you have only 1 problem . Pressure.
if i were you i would do this.
1 st don't use any wedges . forget about them for now
2 nd take a hallow ground blade and set bevel first.
bevel you will see shiny part on the edge of the blade. remember you said when you move blade water moves all long the blade that is a good sign.
Now if ;you get hair cuts off your arm in skin level that is ok go to 8 k. no pressure please and do 50-80 laps check the edge sharpness. if you have loop 30x will help alot. lastly you will see blade gets sharper i mean a lot sharper then 4k now they must pop up right away as soon as it touches to blade go to chin12 k 100 laps no pressure again then strop. if you have chr02 use it if not go to strop 50 lining leather+60 and test it. let us know what happens. gl

Utopian sure knows how to cover the pertinent points and ask the right questions. FWIW I agree with Kevin and hi_bud about the pressure. I've not had a problem with wearing blades down trying to get them sharp. Unless you are exaggerating to make a point I suspect too much pressure is an issue. Another thing that you mentioned was needing to clean the bits of tape off of your hones. I always use tape and I don't leave tape residue on the hones. IOW, less pressure than you are using.

I haven't used sandpaper but mparker762 knows his stuff so I would give up on the sandpaper and either use the 4k or get a coarser hone. The DMTE 1200 continuous plate that mkevenson mentioned is a great bevel setter. I use one myself but if you us too much pressure on that it will eat the steel up quick.

IME I might use a bit more pressure in setting the bevel but just a bit and once that is done as gssixgun once posted, just enough to keep the blade flat on the hone. Just my 2 cents.

When I started out I was obsessive about honing to a perfect edge, which I never got. Eventually I realised I had to try something different, so I stopped honing and did more stropping instead (60 laps on plain leather.) Bingo, great shaves. Please try it, even if you think the honed edge is crap.

If you use pressure when honing you flex the blade and change the geometry of the bevel you create. A typical 15° bevel might be reduced to 13° or so. :shrug: That would give a sharp edge, but one that is weak and doesn't last long. But this doesn't explain why light honing as a follow up doesn't work. :thinking:

Excessive pressure and/or stones (or sandpaper) that are too coarse will produce the frustrating results you describe.

Let me ask one question: How long does it take you to reduce a blade to 2/3 it's original width?

If the answer is anything less than 100+ hours, then this is the problem. I don't believe it would be possible to get to that point, in that amount of time, without way too much pressure or way too coarse a hone.

The best advice I ever got re honing was given to me by an engineer and machinist who had never touched a straight. "There's only one rule to honing," he told me. "Patience."

From that moment on, my honing started to improve.

Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

Door is always open,

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

---

Yes, it is a bit strange how I worded it. What I was experiencing was a good sharp edge coming from the bevel set. When I would go to the higher grits, I felt that the edge was becoming dull. It seemed that the sharpest edge I was getting on the razor was from the bevel set. Why? I dont know.

For a while there I was going back to the bevel setting technique to 'reset' the edge on the blade. After resetting the edge quite a number of times, I noticed I could reset the edge quickly with some pressure being applied. After some frustration on the hones, I applied some (ok .. alot) pressure to the blade on the hone and I got what I thought at the time to be a good edge from the added pressure.

Over time while using this technique I saw uneven, premature spine wear along with strange looking wavy bevels. Also, the resultant edge was not as predictable. The aforementioned experience was the only time I could produce results.

Having this information, I concluded that adding forces or pressure while honing is not necessary for edge refinement and probably detrimental to the razor blade's overall geometry.

I honestly didnt know that a razor was not supposed to wear so quickly.
Live an learn, I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Now i think you have only 1 problem . Pressure.

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I think you are right. I will try your method and report.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Now if ;you get hair cuts off your arm in skin level that is ok go to 8 k..

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I thought arm hair could pop off right away as soon as it touches to blade from the 4k. This is a misunderstanding on my part? Maybe I am asking the wrong question ... but I am striving for this at the 4k level and not the 8k.

No wonder. :confused:

Honestly, this is the only 'sharpness' test I am doing ... well, besides a shave test.

The TPT makes absolutely no sense to me unless I want to slice my thumb.

The TNT makes sense to me for honing out nicks but nothing past that.

:shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

Door is always open,

Lynn

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Dude, you are the man !

I'm bringing the smokes !

Just regarding your comment about the sharpest edges coming off the bevel setter. I think that is a pretty common observation.

As I understand it, the edge off such a low grit has micro-serrations that a)grab the skin more in the TPT, and b)pop hairs well.

When I come off the 1.2K hone my blades pop hairs like crazy and grab my thumb very well. As I move up in grit and remove those micro-serrations I tend to lose some of that grabby, hair popping-ness. You would think that the blade was getting less sharp but the shave tests prove that that is not so.

It sounds like Lynn is willing to help you. Jump on that, you'll be honing razors in no time.

Ok, so I re-flattened my hones if they needed it or not.

I put a blade on the 4k for hours (literally).The blade was sharp enough to awkwardly cut arm hair. By 'awkwardly' I mean holding the edge about 0.5 cm above the skin of my arm and it would cut maybe 2 hairs out of 60-80 the edge would actually contact.


I put the blade on the 8k for a few hundread laps after the 4k. It really didnt seem to do very much. The edge would not cut any arm hair. I looked at the edge with a 10x power lens. The bevel seemed to be even and no nicks were in the edge.


This edge was not even close to being sharp enough to shave. Now I have a face full of cuts.

... wtf ...




I am not exagerating when I say I dumped at minimum about 15 hours into honing this blade. I understand that this process cannot be rushed ... so why am I putting so much time into this and not seeing results.

I have a hard time believing I haven't put enough time into honing this stupid thing.

Also, I have a hard time believing it really takes this long to get a good shaving edge.

+20 hours after the bevel is cut?

This time estimae is within reason regarding a hollow ground blade?

No way.

I am doing something wrong here.

I tried bud_gl's method stated above and the blade wasnt even close to shaving sharp after the 8k. How do I know? I shaved with it ... well, tried to.

This week I have had more cuts on my face than almost 1 year of straight shaving. grrr.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

Door is always open,

Lynn

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That is an awesome offer! In 30 minutes you will learn more than you will on your own in 6 months. There is nothing like seeing it done!

I would add that you should buy some pastes (0.5, 0.25 diamond and Chromium Oxide) and either buy or make some paddle strops. I kept a blade going for 8 months with pastes and a 8K diamond plate. I am from the school that new guys need a way to get sharp razors with a minimum amount of work. They might not be perfect but they will do a very good job and get you going on shaving, the most important part at first. You need another razor and there are many good razors for sale on the Classified section.

Take Care,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whiskers

I put a blade on the 4k for hours (literally).The blade was sharp enough to awkwardly cut arm hair. By 'awkwardly' I mean holding the edge about 0.5 cm above the skin of my arm and it would cut maybe 2 hairs out of 60-80 the edge would actually contact.

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You are very persistent, and that can be a good thing. But you are now stubbornly doing the same tests and the same aggressive honing when you know it isn't getting you anywhere.

You know the sides of the bevel have already met to form a "V" edge. You need to stop wearing away the blade for no reason.

Please learn how to do the thumbnail and thumbpad tests. The TNT will let you know when the bevel is formed and nick-free. Stop using the 4K at that point. Except maybe as part of conservative pyramids. (Also stop doing the TNT after going to finer grits.)

The TPT confirms you have sharpness. It can be tricky to interpret - as someone else pointed out it can mislead you to think it is losing sharpness as you polish the edge. Buy some DE blades to compare the feel against. They are cheap.

And once you've got those DE blades, try those arm hair popping tests on them. I think you are in for a rude awakening.

My touch was very light during this whole honing process. I made it a point to go and use basically the weight of the blade during this session. I didnt see any appreciable wear on the blade.

The thumbnail test is only for honing out nicks.

The sticky thumbpad test only means the edge has a certain surface finish on it.

The only test worth it's salt is the shave test.

Dang! I was just in Philly last week . . .

I have been applying the pointers outlined in this thread to my honing.

I have learned a few things :

- Heavy hands do not refine an edge.
- Patience, Danielson ... Patience.
- Lap, Lap, Lap. Keep the hone flat.
- Old habits die hard. haha.
- I love my Schumate 30.

Finally, I am able to put on (and keep) a good shaving edge on a few of my blades. Granted, these blades are hollow ground but lately I have been working over a 1/4 ground blade and I am having some fun with working that edge.



Thanks SRP !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whiskers

I have been applying the pointers outlined in this thread to my honing.

I have learned a few things :

- Heavy hands do not refine an edge.
- Patience, Danielson ... Patience.
- Lap, Lap, Lap. Keep the hone flat.
- Old habits die hard. haha.
- I love my Schumate 30.

Finally, I am able to put on (and keep) a good shaving edge on a few of my blades. Granted, these blades are hollow ground but lately I have been working over a 1/4 ground blade and I am having some fun with working that edge.



Thanks SRP !!

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I'm there with ya haha, I am very good with hard steel kitchen knives, that skill set doesn't transfer very well to straights :p Took a while to get old habbits refined and build new habbits.

Shumate made a great blade :D