Thread: Ok, guys ...

I've had a blade honed by Lynn, oso I know what sharpness is acceptable to shave with.

I just cant get close to that sharpness with the stones I have.

I've tried just honing on the 4k (after cutting the bevel)to get the arm hair popping test. Literally, I've worn off about 1/3 of the blade trying to conduct this and it still hasnt happened.

I know that the 4k stone is abrasive, sure ... but to conduct the hair popping test I need to wear away a minor amount of the steel to get the edge.

Basically, I do laps on the 4k without anything to show for it except worn nubs that used to be razors.

What gives?

Maybe very hard steel, so you'd need a very soft stone like a King for the bevel.

This is going to likely take an exchange of a lot of questions and answers to get this sorted out. Some may seem patronizing, depending on your knowledge level but they will be asked with good intentions.

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

Are your hones lapped?

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

Are you taping the spine?

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

Are you stropping?

Utopian asked a lot questions lets see answers first. 1 more do you use any pressure when you hone? if yes then don't put any pressure. we wait your answers.
Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

My recommendation, get a DMT 1200 for bevel setting. Your other stones are fine. I use them and get SR blades every time.

In my trials and tribulations, i found that if i did not do enough work at the bevel setting stage. I was in for a world of frustration.

And have very light consistent strokes at the norton 4k and beyond is very important.

If you are passing the marker test and TPT when setting the first bevels, I would suspect too much pressure on the finishing strokes. The marker test can also be used on your final 12k hone.

See answers below in red. Thanks for taking the time. I dont find it partonizing one bit.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
Have you watched any videos?

Yep. Watched a few of Lynn's pyramid videos. I believe I understand the theory behind it. Never once got it to work.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?

Absolutely. There is alot of differences between the two, although once focused on just the bevel, there is alot in common between the two. The rationale of bevel cutting and refining is similar. The techniques (and tools) to achieve them are quite different.

Originally Posted by Utopian

What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?

It's quick. It's available. It's inexpensive. How I understand it ... setting the bevel defines the geometry of the edge. Cutting a new bevel exposes new steel and ensures the bevel is, in fact, correctly defined. This definition is the basis for any edge ( knife, razor). Generally speaking, advancing up into grits will refine the bevel to a keen edge. Sure, I could linger on a 4k for about 10,000 strokes ... so anything like this is possible. It just takes alot less time, effort and energy on lower grit abrasives.

I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels. I use it wet because I find the abrasive on the paper wears consistently. That last bit is only speculation/opinion on my part.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are your hones lapped?

Yep.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?

Tried both, actually. I find I get more wear on the blade if I do straight strokes. Besides that, I cant tell the difference regarding what they do to the edge.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?

The blade seems to increase in sharpness uniformly when I do straight strokes and the blade isnt warped. The sharpness I get off of the 4k is enough to shave hair, but not nearly enough to do what hi_bud_gl defined in his above post. Honestly, I feel that passing this test is possible with any razor.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Specifically what razors have you tried honing?

Some wade and butchers, a couple Henckels, a wosty, one shumate, two wapi's, a Boker, and a few no-name wedges lay in my wake of destruction. I thank God for Ebay and cheap razors.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Do you have access to any means of magnification?

Funny. I went out today and bought a combo loupe that is good for 10X mag. I feel as if I should be inspecting the actual edge for continuity.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you taping the spine?

I have, yes. Specifically on some of the wedges and on the shumate. To me, the sharpness doesn't seem to have the longevity when I tape the spine. Not a big fan, to be honest. When working on the 4k and others, eventually some of the tape will wear off and clog up the hone. Taping the spine doesn't seem to work when I set the bevel on sandpaper, either. The tape self destructs and I am left with steel anyways. For me, it seems like more trouble than it's worth most of the time. Ever try to clean a hone loaded with electrical tape particles? The only way I know how to remove them is to lap. Thats just what I bought the stone for ... wearing it away with sandpaper. ( note the sarcasm)

Originally Posted by Utopian

"I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?

A few ways. First way I used was to simply look at the blade on the hone. Then I began to monitor the water on the honing surface as I was honing. I am looking for a small ridge of excess water to be pushed by the edge during the stroke. In my mind, this means the edge is contacting the hone. The other way I use is to mark up the bevel with a sharpie, run a few strokes and check the bevel.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?

Yep.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are you stropping?

It's funny. With this straight razor shaving, I am learning to take everything piece by piece. I am pretty confident my stropping is ok, but I do not strop because I want to eliminate that variable. Therefore, I do not strop. The edge is a bit harsh, but I am confident that the edge I am shaving with is from the hones. To me, it is a good idea to isolate the honing to ensure I am honing correctly .. or in this case ... wtf is up with this.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

1 more do you use any pressure when you hone?

Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.

Thanks for the encouragement. How many razors did you destroy before learning how to hone?
It seems that I bought a set of rocks to make small piles of steel ... well .. smaller.

Here is your quote Whiskers: "Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results. "

The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

You do not want to use excessive pressure- enough to create a wider bevel, but enough to keep the razor on plane.

I use pressure directed to the edge with a slight twisting torque. I have never damaged tape so perhaps that can guide you.

finally at the end use some of those ultra-light touch strokes

then strop. I discovered that it takes much much practice to get an equal to stropped edge without stropping.

With a proper use of some cloth and hide you may discover you really have been wasting your time as you were there all along best of luck

Originally Posted by kevint

The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

Yes, it is a bit strange how I worded it. What I was experiencing was a good sharp edge coming from the bevel set. When I would go to the higher grits, I felt that the edge was becoming dull. It seemed that the sharpest edge I was getting on the razor was from the bevel set. Why? I dont know.

For a while there I was going back to the bevel setting technique to 'reset' the edge on the blade. After resetting the edge quite a number of times, I noticed I could reset the edge quickly with some pressure being applied. After some frustration on the hones, I applied some (ok .. alot) pressure to the blade on the hone and I got what I thought at the time to be a good edge from the added pressure.

Over time while using this technique I saw uneven, premature spine wear along with strange looking wavy bevels. Also, the resultant edge was not as predictable. The aforementioned experience was the only time I could produce results.

Having this information, I concluded that adding forces or pressure while honing is not necessary for edge refinement and probably detrimental to the razor blade's overall geometry.

I honestly didnt know that a razor was not supposed to wear so quickly.
Live an learn, I guess.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Now i think you have only 1 problem . Pressure.

I think you are right. I will try your method and report.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Now if ;you get hair cuts off your arm in skin level that is ok go to 8 k..

I thought arm hair could pop off right away as soon as it touches to blade from the 4k. This is a misunderstanding on my part? Maybe I am asking the wrong question ... but I am striving for this at the 4k level and not the 8k.

No wonder.

Honestly, this is the only 'sharpness' test I am doing ... well, besides a shave test.

The TPT makes absolutely no sense to me unless I want to slice my thumb.

The TNT makes sense to me for honing out nicks but nothing past that.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

Door is always open,

Lynn

Dude, you are the man !

I'm bringing the smokes !