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Thread: Ok, guys ...

  1. #11
    Grumpy old sod Whiskers's Avatar
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    See answers below in red. Thanks for taking the time. I dont find it partonizing one bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post

    Since you know about the pyramids, you've done some reading on honing.
    Have you watched any videos?
    Yep. Watched a few of Lynn's pyramid videos. I believe I understand the theory behind it. Never once got it to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are you aware of the difference between knife and razor sharpening? That is, keeping the spine down and level on the hone?
    Absolutely. There is alot of differences between the two, although once focused on just the bevel, there is alot in common between the two. The rationale of bevel cutting and refining is similar. The techniques (and tools) to achieve them are quite different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    What is your basis for determining the need to set the bevel on 1K sandpaper?

    Is it wet/dry sandpaper and are you using it wet?
    It's quick. It's available. It's inexpensive. How I understand it ... setting the bevel defines the geometry of the edge. Cutting a new bevel exposes new steel and ensures the bevel is, in fact, correctly defined. This definition is the basis for any edge ( knife, razor). Generally speaking, advancing up into grits will refine the bevel to a keen edge. Sure, I could linger on a 4k for about 10,000 strokes ... so anything like this is possible. It just takes alot less time, effort and energy on lower grit abrasives.

    I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels. I use it wet because I find the abrasive on the paper wears consistently. That last bit is only speculation/opinion on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are your hones lapped?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are you doing straight strokes or x-strokes?
    Tried both, actually. I find I get more wear on the blade if I do straight strokes. Besides that, I cant tell the difference regarding what they do to the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Does ANY part of the blade get sharp?
    The blade seems to increase in sharpness uniformly when I do straight strokes and the blade isnt warped. The sharpness I get off of the 4k is enough to shave hair, but not nearly enough to do what hi_bud_gl defined in his above post. Honestly, I feel that passing this test is possible with any razor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Specifically what razors have you tried honing?
    Some wade and butchers, a couple Henckels, a wosty, one shumate, two wapi's, a Boker, and a few no-name wedges lay in my wake of destruction. I thank God for Ebay and cheap razors.



    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Do you have access to any means of magnification?
    Funny. I went out today and bought a combo loupe that is good for 10X mag. I feel as if I should be inspecting the actual edge for continuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are you taping the spine?
    I have, yes. Specifically on some of the wedges and on the shumate. To me, the sharpness doesn't seem to have the longevity when I tape the spine. Not a big fan, to be honest. When working on the 4k and others, eventually some of the tape will wear off and clog up the hone. Taping the spine doesn't seem to work when I set the bevel on sandpaper, either. The tape self destructs and I am left with steel anyways. For me, it seems like more trouble than it's worth most of the time. Ever try to clean a hone loaded with electrical tape particles? The only way I know how to remove them is to lap. Thats just what I bought the stone for ... wearing it away with sandpaper. ( note the sarcasm)

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    "I've gone so far as to check to see if the edge is actually touching the stone... haha." How did you do that?
    A few ways. First way I used was to simply look at the blade on the hone. Then I began to monitor the water on the honing surface as I was honing. I am looking for a small ridge of excess water to be pushed by the edge during the stroke. In my mind, this means the edge is contacting the hone. The other way I use is to mark up the bevel with a sharpie, run a few strokes and check the bevel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Do you know about, and have you tried, the marker test?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are you stropping?
    It's funny. With this straight razor shaving, I am learning to take everything piece by piece. I am pretty confident my stropping is ok, but I do not strop because I want to eliminate that variable. Therefore, I do not strop. The edge is a bit harsh, but I am confident that the edge I am shaving with is from the hones. To me, it is a good idea to isolate the honing to ensure I am honing correctly .. or in this case ... wtf is up with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl View Post
    1 more do you use any pressure when you hone?
    Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results.


    Quote Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl View Post
    Lastly be patient you will get there . we all learn and 1 day were worse then you are.
    Thanks for the encouragement. How many razors did you destroy before learning how to hone?
    It seems that I bought a set of rocks to make small piles of steel ... well .. smaller.

  2. #12
    Senior Member kevint's Avatar
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    Here is your quote Whiskers: "Sometimes in the past when I first started honing I became tired (frustrated) of honing without seeing any benefit, so I would apply pressure to the blade on the hone. The first time I did this, I got a very keen edge; one of the best edges I ever got off of a hone, actually. Now, I know that this just wears the blade alot without any real benefit. So, I try to use the weight of the blade when honing. Now I understand to hone to a delicate and very sharp edge, light pressure is needed. But, when I use light and delicate strokes, I sit for an hour without results. "

    The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

    You do not want to use excessive pressure- enough to create a wider bevel, but enough to keep the razor on plane.

    I use pressure directed to the edge with a slight twisting torque. I have never damaged tape so perhaps that can guide you.

    finally at the end use some of those ultra-light touch strokes

    then strop. I discovered that it takes much much practice to get an equal to stropped edge without stropping.

    With a proper use of some cloth and hide you may discover you really have been wasting your time as you were there all along best of luck

  3. #13
    Electric Razor Aficionado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskers View Post
    I've been using the 1k wet/dry paper to cut bevels.

    Stop doing this. This is likely a major source of your problems. You should only need to go to wet/dry sandpaper if you're removing major chips from an edge *and* you have mastered use of the traditional hones; it is not a substitute for a stone. Wet-dry sandpaper cuts very quickly but creates a badly ovalled bevel. This is an acceptable trade-off if you're removing nicks, but is a disastrous course of action in just about every other situation, since it removes way too much steel and destroys the bevel.

    The key to successful honing is being as gentle with the steel as possible.

  4. #14
    Senior Member blabbermouth hi_bud_gl's Avatar
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    i read all your answers.
    let me answer to your question first. this is really funny,.
    when i start to hone i was back honing. i have never seen in my life forward honing. i was thinking this people are crazy and was laughing a lot.
    sooner or later i realize i am the one is crazy.
    Anyway hope this will guide you.
    Now i think you have only 1 problem . Pressure.
    if i were you i would do this.
    1 st don't use any wedges . forget about them for now
    2 nd take a hallow ground blade and set bevel first.
    bevel you will see shiny part on the edge of the blade. remember you said when you move blade water moves all long the blade that is a good sign.
    Now if ;you get hair cuts off your arm in skin level that is ok go to 8 k. no pressure please and do 50-80 laps check the edge sharpness. if you have loop 30x will help alot. lastly you will see blade gets sharper i mean a lot sharper then 4k now they must pop up right away as soon as it touches to blade go to chin12 k 100 laps no pressure again then strop. if you have chr02 use it if not go to strop 50 lining leather+60 and test it. let us know what happens. gl

  5. #15
    Senior Member blabbermouth JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Utopian sure knows how to cover the pertinent points and ask the right questions. FWIW I agree with Kevin and hi_bud about the pressure. I've not had a problem with wearing blades down trying to get them sharp. Unless you are exaggerating to make a point I suspect too much pressure is an issue. Another thing that you mentioned was needing to clean the bits of tape off of your hones. I always use tape and I don't leave tape residue on the hones. IOW, less pressure than you are using.

    I haven't used sandpaper but mparker762 knows his stuff so I would give up on the sandpaper and either use the 4k or get a coarser hone. The DMTE 1200 continuous plate that mkevenson mentioned is a great bevel setter. I use one myself but if you us too much pressure on that it will eat the steel up quick.

    IME I might use a bit more pressure in setting the bevel but just a bit and once that is done as gssixgun once posted, just enough to keep the blade flat on the hone. Just my 2 cents.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

  6. #16
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    When I started out I was obsessive about honing to a perfect edge, which I never got. Eventually I realised I had to try something different, so I stopped honing and did more stropping instead (60 laps on plain leather.) Bingo, great shaves. Please try it, even if you think the honed edge is crap.

    If you use pressure when honing you flex the blade and change the geometry of the bevel you create. A typical 15° bevel might be reduced to 13° or so. That would give a sharp edge, but one that is weak and doesn't last long. But this doesn't explain why light honing as a follow up doesn't work.

  7. #17
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    Default My take

    Excessive pressure and/or stones (or sandpaper) that are too coarse will produce the frustrating results you describe.

    Let me ask one question: How long does it take you to reduce a blade to 2/3 it's original width?

    If the answer is anything less than 100+ hours, then this is the problem. I don't believe it would be possible to get to that point, in that amount of time, without way too much pressure or way too coarse a hone.

    The best advice I ever got re honing was given to me by an engineer and machinist who had never touched a straight. "There's only one rule to honing," he told me. "Patience."

    From that moment on, my honing started to improve.
    Last edited by pcb01; 05-25-2009 at 05:45 AM.

  8. #18
      Lynn's Avatar
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    Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

    Door is always open,

    Lynn

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lynn For This Useful Post:

    hi_bud_gl (05-25-2009), Whiskers (05-26-2009)

  10. #19
    Grumpy old sod Whiskers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevint View Post

    The first time you tried you got one of your keenest edges, but then you go on to say it provides no real benefit. Do you notice some contradiction?

    Yes, it is a bit strange how I worded it. What I was experiencing was a good sharp edge coming from the bevel set. When I would go to the higher grits, I felt that the edge was becoming dull. It seemed that the sharpest edge I was getting on the razor was from the bevel set. Why? I dont know.

    For a while there I was going back to the bevel setting technique to 'reset' the edge on the blade. After resetting the edge quite a number of times, I noticed I could reset the edge quickly with some pressure being applied. After some frustration on the hones, I applied some (ok .. alot) pressure to the blade on the hone and I got what I thought at the time to be a good edge from the added pressure.

    Over time while using this technique I saw uneven, premature spine wear along with strange looking wavy bevels. Also, the resultant edge was not as predictable. The aforementioned experience was the only time I could produce results.

    Having this information, I concluded that adding forces or pressure while honing is not necessary for edge refinement and probably detrimental to the razor blade's overall geometry.

    I honestly didnt know that a razor was not supposed to wear so quickly.
    Live an learn, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl View Post
    Now i think you have only 1 problem . Pressure.
    I think you are right. I will try your method and report.

    Quote Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl View Post
    Now if ;you get hair cuts off your arm in skin level that is ok go to 8 k..
    I thought arm hair could pop off right away as soon as it touches to blade from the 4k. This is a misunderstanding on my part? Maybe I am asking the wrong question ... but I am striving for this at the 4k level and not the 8k.

    No wonder.

    Honestly, this is the only 'sharpness' test I am doing ... well, besides a shave test.

    The TPT makes absolutely no sense to me unless I want to slice my thumb.

    The TNT makes sense to me for honing out nicks but nothing past that.




    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Stop by the house for about an hour and we'll have you well on your way to successfully honing your razors.

    Door is always open,

    Lynn
    Dude, you are the man !

    I'm bringing the smokes !

  11. #20
    Senior Member JCitron's Avatar
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    Just regarding your comment about the sharpest edges coming off the bevel setter. I think that is a pretty common observation.

    As I understand it, the edge off such a low grit has micro-serrations that a)grab the skin more in the TPT, and b)pop hairs well.

    When I come off the 1.2K hone my blades pop hairs like crazy and grab my thumb very well. As I move up in grit and remove those micro-serrations I tend to lose some of that grabby, hair popping-ness. You would think that the blade was getting less sharp but the shave tests prove that that is not so.

    It sounds like Lynn is willing to help you. Jump on that, you'll be honing razors in no time.

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