Thread: Point of "wind up" on pyramid?

Hi All -
I'm sure someone's already asked this, but I can't find the thread.

What's the point of the "up swing" on the honing pyramid for the Norton 4k/8k? It seems that if you're increasing the ratio of 4k laps to 8k laps, you're essentially making the deeper scratches, and then when you reverse the trend, you're (on average) making shallower scratches. So why not just jump to the coarsest scratches (5/5 on the "conservative pyramid") and skip the lead up?

Thanks for any insight -
Shuka

What upswing are you referring to? The one at the end when your doing 10 laps on the 8k to 1 on the 4k? If so, the answer is because we want the finish of the 8k, not the 4k or some variant between the two. The 8k is the ultimate goal.

If not, I have no idea what the upswing is.

Btw, there are many variants on the pyramid method. The one Lynn demonstrates is the same number of strokes on each stone until you get to 1 lap on the 4k. I suggest you ask the author about a particular variant.

I believe what he is refering to is the fact that you start out with very few strokes on the 4k, work you way up to ten (or 5, I don't remember) and then work you way back down.

If I'm correct, then the question is, what is the benefit of starting with very few on the 4k and working up, just to come back down rather than starting with a lot on the 4k and working your way down from there.

As far as the answer, I haven't a clue.

I had a shop teacher in 7th grade tell me that if I kept my mouth shut people would think I was stupid ..... and if I opened it they would know I was stupid. So at the risk of proving Mr. Fawcett right here is what I have learned about the pyramid. I began with Lynn's DVD as the foundation of my honing using the pyramid method. I've read various explanations about how and why it works. I haven't paid a lot of attention to these explanations on why preferring to use the method and see if it works for me and it does.

I have used the pyramid method with Nortons and with Shaptons. I have also tried the progressive method and found that I prefer the pyramid. I am not saying that Lynn is the last word in honing and that no one else's experience or methods shouldn't be taken into account but chances are no one on this board past or present has honed even close to as many razors as he has and the pyramid is his method of choice.

I have read that using the pyramid a new honer will be less likely to over hone. The 4K sharpens the razor and the 8K refines and smooths the edge. You begin with more strokes on the 4K to remove metal and sharpen. The interleaved strokes on the 8K begin to smooth out and refine the edge as you go on until you're doing more strokes on the 8 and eventually finishing up on it. It is good to shave test after the 8K before moving on to higher grits. This way you will know that you've gotten the razor sharp. The way I've learned it is the 4k that sharpens and the higher grits polish. If it won't shave well at the 4/8 level it needs more work and the shave test will be the proof.

I don't pretend to know precisely why and how it works but I know that it does. In the SRP Wiki you have two resources that I put up there awhile back because they were a great help to me in my honing and I still refer to them to recharge the batteries. The pyramid guide here and a collection of posts on honing by Lynn here. There is a wealth of information in those two tutorials more in practice than in theory and that is what I focus on.

Give me some more info and I will explain it as best I can.

1. What is the starting condition of the razor? New, Ebay/antique store special, just needs a touch up.

2. Let me know what progression you are referring to.


Let us know so we can help you,

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I believe what he is refering to is the fact that you start out with very few strokes on the 4k, work you way up to ten (or 5, I don't remember) and then work you way back down.

If I'm correct, then the question is, what is the benefit of starting with very few on the 4k and working up, just to come back down rather than starting with a lot on the 4k and working your way down from there.

As far as the answer, I haven't a clue.

Yes, Veedub65 got it - thanks! The reason I'm interested in knowing the theory (rather than just the practice) is that I'm (as I've been told) a "ball-buster." The fact that I don't understand why the first part of the pyramid is "good" indicates that I'm missing something important about honing. A practical reason I'm interested in knowing this is that I want to know exactly when I need to start "super-lightening up" the stroke.

I've been working on ebay specials that I've gotten to the point of reasonable shaving. So I'm just touching up, touching up, trying to get better. The progression I'm working with is the "conservative pyramid" for the norton 4/8k from the wiki...

Thanks!
Shuka

Well, if you think about it, theres not really much difference between the progressive pyramid and starting at 15 laps on both stones. The only difference would be that the 8k strokes are done right after the 4k strokes. So instead of having 15 laps before getting to the 8k stone, you do 5 laps or 10 laps. I don't know the exact numbers because I use the regular pyramid. Easier to keep track of.

That said, it all comes down to personal preference. While the progressive pyramid may save me strokes, if I have to switch stones pretty often that sucks up my time.

As for the theory behind it, if the pyramid works because the deep scratches of the 4k are evened out by the 8k, allowing a more refined edge once finished, then theoretically the less laps on the 4k, the better. Thus, the progressive pyramid is just splitting up the 15 laps into fewer laps.

At least thats what I think.

Thanks for the info!

The purpose of the pyramid method is to "provide a structured approach" to the honing of a straight razor for guys who have never sharpened anything. It is also to help prevent the most common mistake...overhoning. When the edge is so thin that it bends when it trys to cut the whisker a wire edge is developed, it is overhoned. A wire edge has no structural rigidity, kinda like aluminum foil.
One of the main points in the pyramid method is to test the edge frequently, after each sequence such as 10/5 test, 5/5 test etc. When you can feel a "noticeable change in the edge" ( not a "maybe it is sharper") then you may decide to give it a shave test ( stropping on leather first ).

The edge "feel" that your looking for is not something that can be described adequately by words. You will learn it by honing many times, standardizing on some tests and shave testing.

So, when to go "super lite" on the 8K? I use the last 10 -25 strokes super lite. It works for me.

Regarding the pyramid sequence where you start at say 5/10 then work up to 15/10 and back down to 1/10. Why the up and down?
The reason is that most new guys do not know where to start so we start then off at a conservative number( It really should start at 1/5 or 1/10). Since we are sitting at a keyboard, unable to edge test the blade ourself, and with no record of what has been done so far, we have to give a generalized, conservative, approach.

The intent is to have the person test the edge after every set (say 3/10 or 5/10 or 1/10 etc ) and when they have a noticeable change in the feel of the edge then stop, strop, and shave test.

In this manner they will learn the rate of change that occurs with that set of hones on that specific razor.
Over time the person will learn to closely correlate a specific edge feel, using a standardized test, to how well a razor will shave.


Hope this helps,

FWIW, Randy probably forgot more than I know about honing and the Wiki tutorial on setting the bevel and honing with the Norton pyramid at first consisted of his PMs to me telling me how to do it until others added stuff to it. Great post above Randy.

Thanks Randydancexxxxx -
That's a rational I can understand and learn from. I'll try and develop the magic touch -
Shuka