Thread: A Good One

Howdy,

Today I was perusing the forums and read a post that said basically that people who hone razors for others are honing defensively, i.e., producing the sharpest possible blade so that a newbie can't say the blade wasn't sharp enough. But, these super-sharp blades are counter-productive in the long run because they are so labor-intensive to maintain.

One of the things I am always concerned about is new guys reading this kind of dribble.

As a shaver who hones my own razors too, I am and have always been in search of the perfect edge and the perfect shave. I do have a personal mission here which has not changed since I started the first straight razor forum on the web. That mission is to provide every new guy who enters our doors with the tools to be able to enjoy straight razor shaving and be able to learn the skills to maintain their own straight razors and get the absolute best shave that their razors can possibly give.

Forgive me, but there is nothing defensive about honing a razor. I hone every razor with the intent to give that razor a shaving edge that I will enjoy shaving with. I have never found maintenance of a well honed razor any more labor intensive than a mostly well honed razor or an acceptable edge on a razor. Strop them and shave every day until they pull a little and then touch them up and shave some more.

The things that destroy edges, destroy them whether they are perfect, almost perfect or not so perfect. Granted, everyone has their own skill set and level of acceptability, but why would you settle for a mediocre edge when honing when you can produce a superior one? Everyone who has done any significant honing has preferences in hones, pastes and strops and end up using what works best for them. This a good thing and has helped all of us continue to learn new techniques and about new equipment out there. I digress.......

Any way, for my 2 cents, give me the very best edge and the very smoothest and most comfortable shave I can get.

I would love to hear the opinions of others who hone razors for people.

Thanks,

Lynn

I didn't understand quite what people were eluding to back then, nor do I now...

I hone every razor the same too Lynn, as if I were shaving it everyday instead of just a single test shave, in fact there are many that I would love to have get "Lost in the Mail"

I understand that people might like, say a Japanese Natural over a Shapton 30k, for the feel on their face, but to say we are honing them sharper then they need to be, just makes no sense to me.... I cannot wrap my brain around that, nor can I hone an edge to less then max sharpness.... I mean seriously how do you do that?????

Different finishers, yes I understand that, we played around with that in NC, but the edges were already set for sharpness, we were not making the razor "Duller" we were just changing the finishing stone....
I even can understand the differences in the pastes for finishing, some razors like diamonds some don't, most like .50CrOx I get that, but still I go as sharp and as smooth as I possibly get the edge....

I think maybe some people have their own routine set in stone so well that any change to that seems alien.... But what do they do when they buy a new razor????

I am officially confused at this one...

if i understand right some razor's gets overhoned (people gets very sharp edge and they cannot maintain or first they shave and love it later on problem comes up edge doesn't hold on ,brakes down)
I agree on this With Lynn and sometimes we have to take blame . Only Problem i see in here is this. New Person gets razor and who can say they didn't strop right and brake down the edge and honer is helpless in this case.
I would appreciate every Person when they do have problem with blade let the honer's or seller 's to know the problem. in this case we can learn too.
I wish we had in the forum complaining subtitle for newbees or buyers .friendly posts let Honers and seller's of the razor to know their mistakes . i understand no one is perfect.
Lets see what others think . Thank You Lynn for nice Post.

I agree wholeheartedly Lynn. While I don't advertise offering honing and I haven't honed for $ I have honed a few razors for a couple of people who live near me. Both have said that the edges were first rate and that makes me happy.

Most of the razors I have honed have been for my own use and I am always trying to get as good an edge as I possibly can. For me getting as keen and smooth an edge as I can is the goal. Not because of the shave but rather to prove to myself that I can.

The great shave is a byproduct ..... if I earn it. My ultimate goal is to be capable of getting as keen and smooth an edge as anyone could possibly get. I've got a ways to go but as they say in a club I belonged to., the joy is in the journey, not the destination.

I am not a person who hones razors for others, but I am the author of the post that Lynn quotes, so I ought to have the right to defend myself.

Lynn has previously criticized me for saying that I shaved for 28 years with a Dovo stainless #41 that never saw anything but a barbers hone. He doesn't think that new users should read that kind of drivel either. Unfortunately for Lynn, it's the truth.

As for the subject at hand. I originally came to SRP in April 2008 because my barbers hone was temporarily lost and I didn't know how to replace it. I was fascinated to read about the great explosion taking place in razor honing technology and I decided to try some of the products out, starting with a Norton 4K/8K, then a Norton Flattening stone, a coticule bout, a 4-sided paddle strop with pastes (Dovo Red, Dovo Black, CrOx and 0.25 micron diamond), a BBW/Coticule combination, a Charnley Forest stone, a vintage coticule and a Honyama Awaseto with nagura stone. My point here is that I am not against new technology but I do like to try things for myself and then determine whether they work or not.

One of the things that happens when you shave for 28 years with a barbers hone is that you compensate for any shortcomings in the sharpness/smoothness of the blade by developing good technique. I'm not bragging when I say that I know as much about shaving technique as anyone here on the forum. Unfortunately, that type of information is more difficult to talk about and convey than honing technique. New users also need to learn good technique but that takes time.

Today, with all the new hones and pastes, we produce razors that are much sharper and smoother than anything our ancestors had to shave with. I'm not saying that this is in anyway bad, but it needs to be kept in perspective.

So, anyway, arriving here a year and a half ago, I jumped into the new technology with both feet. I like the edge off of CrOx, but I find that it doesn't last more than a shave or two before it drops off. That's my experience. Ideally, that's what this forum is about, everyone stating their experience.

So, having found that super-sharp, smooth edges are high maintenance, I went back to a process that, again IMO, is more sustainable. I have nothing against a sharp/smooth razor, but I think that technology has to be balanced with technique and that giving new shaver's the ultimate edge is like, and I'm struggling for the right simile here, teaching someone to ride a bike with 16 gears when what they really need is training wheels or teaching someone to drive in a Ferrari. As for honemeisters honing defensively, when you sharpen a razor for someone else, you have no control over their technique, so you make sure the razor is sharp. Unfortunately, the result is that new shavers think that the razor has to be that sharp to shave with and it doesn't.

Maybe all those years of shaving with a barbers hone have ruined me because, when I read about honing progressions that involve 4 or 5 hones and pastes, I just shake my head at the needless complexity of it all. What I want is simplicity that gives me a good shave and a razor that is easy to maintain.

Defensive honing, i.e. getting it as sharp as I can because I fear a unsatisfied customer, is not something that I think or do, nor does anyone else that I know. What I do is very simple, I hone the razor until it shaves ME very well. I, and those who hone razors for others, know that we cannot satisfy everyone . So, we do what we can and hopefully the customer is pleased.
I have long held the belief that a razor can be to sharp for me and I have also found that what I thought was a good edge was not for some guys. Some thought it to sharp and some said not sharp enough. So, why would I attempt to hone a razor to a hair breath away from a wire edge? That would not make sense.

I hone with pride,

OK now I am really lost

Obviously I am missing something here so somebody please explain how in the world you guys do NOT sharpen a blade as much?????????????????

What you let it fail a test or two????? stopping at a lower grit ??? that doesn't affect "SHARPNESS"
I mean seriously how do you do this????????????

I personally think we are talking smoothness and the finishing stage... but

I am reminded of when I first started sharpening. When I first got the 30K Shapton Pro, I sharpened EVERYTHING up to 30K - even my pencils

But as I started to use the things I sharpened, it became clear to me that grit is only half the equation and geometry is the other half. Both are equal (even though angles are less of an issue with straights). I also noticed that some knives didn't really last longer at higher grits than if they were sharpened to lower. For example, the cheapo stainless steel knives hold better edges at 1500 vs. high quality Japanese which work best at 2000+. Realizing that every answer to sharpening is "it depends", I began my sharpening journey ....

So my perspective, I think I know what Lynn is saying, and I agree. To sharpen to 30K doesn't necessarily mean that 30k is what is better or more suited for a given purpose, but to broadly state that it is no good or more difficult to maintain is wrong, too. You simply need to have a 30K stone (and a few others).

How deeply a person gets involved past "good enough" (which we all agree, seems to be 8K) is a personal and financial issue. From all the posts I've seen, that advice comes across quite clearly and consistently on the SRP.

Sharpening defensively, as I see it, is someone saying that being able to go so high is what makes "their" abilities as a sharpener better than someone else's. Or conversely, saying that going too high is bad. That just shows fear and lack of confidence/experience, IMO.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

As for honemeisters honing defensively, when you sharpen a razor for someone else, you have no control over their technique, so you make sure the razor is sharp. Unfortunately, the result is that new shavers think that the razor has to be that sharp to shave with and it doesn't.

OK, now I understand your point. Thanks for the clarification.
Just how sharp to make a razor is a question that I thought about and decided by bringing the edge to a level of sharpness that suits me. I chose not to get them so sharp that it cut me just by laying the blade on my cheek or giving me a bunch of "weepers". IMHO that is to sharp.

However, we cannot be responsible for a newbs inexperienced/unrealistic expectations regarding sharpness, smoothness, feel, or durability of the edge. The new guys will eventually figure out what they really like. It is not my responsibility to read tea leaves & figure out what kind of an edge would suit them. That is not only impossible but over time a guy will change their mind as to what kind of edge suits them.

I do agree that a new guy may very well be baffled by the apparent complexity of all the hones, grit,pastes. when it simply is not necessary. We really need to work on that.

Technique's to overcome a lacking in the edge is an area that needs expansion. Right now my compensating techniques are simply linen and leather and an excellent beard prep. I would really like to learn other methods.

OK, I have to get to bed,

Originally Posted by Chimensch

I am not a person who hones razors for others, but I am the author of the post that Lynn quotes, so I ought to have the right to defend myself.

Lynn has previously criticized me for saying that I shaved for 28 years with a Dovo stainless #41 that never saw anything but a barbers hone. He doesn't think that new users should read that kind of drivel either. Unfortunately for Lynn, it's the truth.

As for the subject at hand. I originally came to SRP in April 2008 because my barbers hone was temporarily lost and I didn't know how to replace it. I was fascinated to read about the great explosion taking place in razor honing technology and I decided to try some of the products out, starting with a Norton 4K/8K, then a Norton Flattening stone, a coticule bout, a 4-sided paddle strop with pastes (Dovo Red, Dovo Black, CrOx and 0.25 micron diamond), a BBW/Coticule combination, a Charnley Forest stone, a vintage coticule and a Honyama Awaseto with nagura stone. My point here is that I am not against new technology but I do like to try things for myself and then determine whether they work or not.

One of the things that happens when you shave for 28 years with a barbers hone is that you compensate for any shortcomings in the sharpness/smoothness of the blade by developing good technique. I'm not bragging when I say that I know as much about shaving technique as anyone here on the forum. Unfortunately, that type of information is more difficult to talk about and convey than honing technique. New users also need to learn good technique but that takes time.

Today, with all the new hones and pastes, we produce razors that are much sharper and smoother than anything our ancestors had to shave with. I'm not saying that this is in anyway bad, but it needs to be kept in perspective.

So, anyway, arriving here a year and a half ago, I jumped into the new technology with both feet. I like the edge off of CrOx, but I find that it doesn't last more than a shave or two before it drops off. That's my experience. Ideally, that's what this forum is about, everyone stating their experience.

So, having found that super-sharp, smooth edges are high maintenance, I went back to a process that, again IMO, is more sustainable. I have nothing against a sharp/smooth razor, but I think that technology has to be balanced with technique and that giving new shaver's the ultimate edge is like, and I'm struggling for the right simile here, teaching someone to ride a bike with 16 gears when what they really need is training wheels or teaching someone to drive in a Ferrari. As for honemeisters honing defensively, when you sharpen a razor for someone else, you have no control over their technique, so you make sure the razor is sharp. Unfortunately, the result is that new shavers think that the razor has to be that sharp to shave with and it doesn't.

Maybe all those years of shaving with a barbers hone have ruined me because, when I read about honing progressions that involve 4 or 5 hones and pastes, I just shake my head at the needless complexity of it all. What I want is simplicity that gives me a good shave and a razor that is easy to maintain.

Very true i have barbers hone i have not used yet with your experiance i no you use your coticule would prefer coti over the barbers hone.