Thread: Bevel Setting

Onimaru55 made me aware in a PM that Norton used to have different ratings for their hones. I too remember that they rated their 8K as 3 micron, and not the 4K.
Here's where I doublechecked the current micron ratings:
Norton Water Stones at Tools for Working Wood

I think the Norton marketing department decided to follow Shapton, that always rated their 8K finer than 3 micron... This only confirms that these firms can actully say what they want in advertising. The value of truth is reversely correlated to the bank accounts of the stockholders.

Bart.

I respectfully absolutly positively disagree, and I have only this as proof...

Take a 4k Norton and do 1600 laps, going on your assumtions that a 1k is 16 times faster than a 4k...

Let me know how all that works for you


For the rest of you people lost in the GritZone please DO NOT do 1600 laps on any stone I'm being sarcastic here...

Originally and for quite some time the Norton 4K was the lowest grit hone I had and I did many a bevel on that hone and it wasn't just a tuning in of the old but a complete bevel job. Its just a matter of technique. Sure the 1K makes it easier but I wouldn't say the 4K took an inordinate amount of time.

This is all mix up.
Why to make so difficult simple stuff?
1k has larger particles then 4 k.
Now when you move your blade against larger particles , they will remove more metal in larger size and will leave larger scratches.
(Now we do assume they are made with same company and join with same glue etc) above statement should be correct.
Now can you set bevel with 4k of course you can i am sure you can set bevel with AN ESCHER but questions is how long it will take and how much stone you will loose.
1k advisable for straight razor because you do remove enough metal which easy set the bevel . Can you use 325 yes but result you are removing unnecessary metal. if you are sharpening axis i am sure i will say please go head use 100 grit stone.

i hope i didn't add more confusion.

[QUOTE=hi_bud_gl;449552]This is all mix up.
Why to make so difficult simple stuff?
1k has larger particles then 4 k.
Now when you move your blade against larger particles , they will remove more metal in larger size and will leave larger scratches.
(Now we do assume they are made with same company and join with same glue etc) above statement should be correct.
Now can you set bevel with 4k of course you can i am sure you can set bevel with AN ESCHER but questions is how long it will take and how much stone you will loose.
1k advisable for straight razor because you do remove enough metal which easy set the bevel . Can you use 325 yes but result you are removing unnecessary metal. if you are sharpening axis i am sure i will say please go head use 100 grit stone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been relying on my DMT 8c which is 325 grit marked on the box. It very definitely does remove steel at a good clip. My question to hi_bud_gl is , should I slow down and go with the Norton 1000 or am I OK with the DMT 8c. I try to set the proper bevel before I polish the edge. I always hope that I am not removing too much steel (especially with my Bismarck). It seems that some honesters have a somewhat better handle on this situation than I do. I spent too many years with just a 3 line Swaty hone and a leather strop. All this modern stuff basically confuses me but I keep buying Coticules, Shaptons, Nakayamas and Naniwas just the same.

I feel inadequate because after all these years I feel I should be more accomplished at honing than I am. I still refuse to be discouraged.

Half of my razors shave great and the other half still need that magic touch. I am turning my attention to multi / micro bevels. In case you never hear from me again, that's where I'll be....

Jerry
~~~

To Jerry
Please this is only for this person.
My opinion is this .Jerry you are killing your blades. 325 grit dmt you will need use only there is a big chips on the blade i mean really big. over then that 325 is very good for lapping other stones.
Now if you are setting bevel razor bought from ebay i would agree with you go head use 1k.
if you are sharpening your daily used razor until your drop that blade and mess up the edge you don't need 1k hone . mostly 4k will do the job.
I hope dmt 8c you have used has been brake in already.
Please don't use it dmt 8c anymore this is how it looks like after dmt8c edge of the blade approximation

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

after this you will need to take saw tooth out and that is loosing steel.
i hope i am clear enough . if you have a question please send pm. i will gladly answer.
GL



[QUOTE=mrsell63;449726]

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

This is all mix up.
Why to make so difficult simple stuff?
1k has larger particles then 4 k.
Now when you move your blade against larger particles , they will remove more metal in larger size and will leave larger scratches.
(Now we do assume they are made with same company and join with same glue etc) above statement should be correct.
Now can you set bevel with 4k of course you can i am sure you can set bevel with AN ESCHER but questions is how long it will take and how much stone you will loose.
1k advisable for straight razor because you do remove enough metal which easy set the bevel . Can you use 325 yes but result you are removing unnecessary metal. if you are sharpening axis i am sure i will say please go head use 100 grit stone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been relying on my DMT 8c which is 325 grit marked on the box. It very definitely does remove steel at a good clip. My question to hi_bud_gl is , should I slow down and go with the Norton 1000 or am I OK with the DMT 8c. I try to set the proper bevel before I polish the edge. I always hope that I am not removing too much steel (especially with my Bismarck). It seems that some honesters have a somewhat better handle on this situation than I do. I spent too many years with just a 3 line Swaty hone and a leather strop. All this modern stuff basically confuses me but I keep buying Coticules, Shaptons, Nakayamas and Naniwas just the same.

I feel inadequate because after all these years I feel I should be more accomplished at honing than I am. I still refuse to be discouraged.

Half of my razors shave great and the other half still need that magic touch. I am turning my attention to multi / micro bevels. In case you never hear from me again, that's where I'll be....

Jerry
~~~

Reading what Jerry said prompts me to say that along with buying a bunch of hones getting a bunch of razors is essential too. If a person wants to learn to hone the only way is to hone a lot of razors. Study the info in the SRP Wiki and in the forum archives, watch the videos and try to apply what you've learned from them.

To me each razor is a potential challenge. Some come sharp easy and some are a struggle. I called Lynn on the phone yesterday and asked his opinion on what approach to use on a particularly recalcitrant blade. Going to an expert for advice personally or on the forum is always beneficial IME.

I've only used a 325 to remove a large chip and once on a bad frown. Both ebay razors. On any that I hone I check the existing bevel and decide whether a 1k is the best bet or if it isn't bad if a 4k would be better and go from there. What to use to set the bevel ain't carved in stone. Each razor is an individual case and should be approached as such.

On some of them I will use the 1200 diamond plate. If I find the edge is getting chippy with the diamonds, which I sometimes run into, I will switch to a Shapton pro or a Naniwa. I examine the edge under magnification as I go and determine what will work the best for a given razor. If it is a 4k that is where I start or a 1k if that is what I think it needs.

I recall I was doing a bevel on an ebay special and did a TNT. It dug in nicely for the length of the blade. I took it to the 30x microscope and even though it felt good on the TNT it needed a lot more work on the 1k. If I hadn't had the magnification I would've moved up in grit too soon. As a buddy of mine told me a long time ago,"the whole is the sum of it's parts." IOW, all of this stuff works together to reach the goal and neglecting any part affects that outcome. End of ramble.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I respectfully absolutly positively disagree, and I have only this as proof...

Take a 4k Norton and do 1600 laps, going on your assumtions that a 1k is 16 times faster than a 1k...

That would then equal 1000 laps on a 1K.... according to my estimate and 4000 according to yours.
I wouldn't do either, an I don't see how taking this into absurdity will proof or disproof anything.

But upon some further thinkering, I didn't bring into account that a 4K actually has more particles than the 1K, as Tom pointed out. That brings my estimate closer to yours, but not all the way.

The bottom line is that we all agree, except about how much the speed difference precisely is.

Best regards,
Bart.

Holy smokes! I now know one thing for sure; I don't know anything. All of you have a ton of knowledge on metallurgy and honing stones; plus you have all your years of experience.

I am just happy reloading and homemade bread making are easy to me. I went ahead and ordered a 1000 grit stone today. I figured one more stone just opened my abilities, what there is to them, one more notch.

Laugh! I thought I would jump into SR shaving,; get a single razor, strop and some stones; and that would be it. Laugh! That was like thinking flying would be easy. Oh well, I concurred the latter, but I think the former will take longer than 45 hours of training.

Thank you all for your answers. Take care.

Things aren't always as complicated as they seem. There's no reason an already honed razor can't be maintained with a strop & an occasional touch up with a fine hone.