Thread: Pressure while honing ?

Hi guys,

I'm just starting to get acquainted with my new Norton 4k/8k and did some honing yesterday to get my razors up to shaving sharpness again.

Unfortunately, things have not been going that well. After 40x4k, 30x8k and around 20x green Paste strop and 30x plain leather strop the hanging hair test is passed, but not in the required popping sensation. With the thumb, I can feel a bit of sticking to the thumb, but not by much. The shave this morning has been pulling and dragging even with the grain.

My question aims at the pressure you use while honing on the Norton. I started out with just a little pressure (about 200g, measured with stone kitchen scale) and did the last 10 or so strokes with near to no pressure, just keeping the razor flat on the stone by supporting the handle from below and then dragging across the stone and concentrating on keeping the razor flat. Could it be that I use too less a pressure at this stage, especially on the 8k ?

Perhaps it would also be helpful if you guys could sum up what your "settings" regarding pressure while honing are.

In the end I would expect the razor to come off the 8k passing the hair test, or am I mistaken there ?

Many thanks, best wishes,
-Axel-

ONE of the challenges I have been wrestling with in my honing is even pressure from one sides pass to the return. The placement of my thumb and fingers from right-left was good to create contact with the edge on the hone while the left-right pass was not. I now keep my forefinger toward the spine on the underside of the razor's logo stamped grip and my thumb toward the edge side and with NO difference in "pressure" the difference in results is palpable. So, when you think about "pressure" don't ignore "torsion". Even when you're not trying to apply any it's there.

The 200g of pressure fits in with what I have heard Randy say. I suspect you could double that at the start.

I don't understand the guys who run 10-20 passes on the 8k and then move on. I'm finding the grinding created on the 4k essential for the final edge. Ending the pyramid hone with three 1/5 passes on the Norton is often too much polish for me to get it just right. Lynn recommended I do a few 1/3 passes (no pressure) and it turned my Dubl Duck into the perfect hair popper and a great shave. Admittedly, I follow that with about 30-40 passes on the 0.5 micron pasted strop and have only been lastingly successful with one razor, but I hope this is right and I hope it can help you.

X

Hi X,

thanks for your comments - they are very helpful indeed. You are right about mentioning the torsion, that's one my key problems as well.

Currently what I do is start honing with both hands, away and towards me, leading the blade while holding it on both sides. Then, for the finer strokes, I turn the stone and move the blade left/right, with only one hand holding the razor, thumb on the shank and index finger below the shank, the grip resting in the palm. I imagine I can get a better feel for the lighter touch required at this stage.

When you talk about doubling the pressure at the beginning, does this also apply to the 8k stage ? Or would this hurt the edge created on the 4k ?

Finally, I think I'll have to try the pyramid stuff to see whether this will give me better results.

Thanks for your comments,
-Axel-

"When you talk about doubling the pressure at the beginning, does this also apply to the 8k stage ? Or would this hurt the edge created on the 4k ?"

I would start without doubling the pressure and see how that goes. Before I doubled pressure I would just add a little more. I don't think you'll hurt the bevel but you'll certainly find your honing more difficult on the 8k side if your using undue pressure. I just recently discovered that the bevel of the edge gets honed on the inside toward the spine but not the entire width of the bevel as you use pressure, it bends the very edge outward.

Pressure is something that must be controlled carefully and avoided if you can.

Pyramiding is a good technique I think...both of these I learned just today as I'm getting some tutoring from Joe and Laz.

And hello again,

now I tried the conservative pyramid on the tugging razor - afterwards it sticks nicely to my thumb while testing and the arm hair sort of flies away when showing it to the razor In fact I could feel the progress on my thumb, which alone makes me quite happy.

Will do the test shave tomorrow to see how this worked out.

And just to stiffle my increase courage and show me my rank again I failed miserably on a second razor, which was a bit more dull (newly purchased Timor). Gave it the agressive pyramid and then followed by the conservative, as the result was not impressive. Wasn't afterwards, either. Some paste and leather improved that a bit, but the edge doesn't stick on the thumb as good as the first razor - will check tomorrow to see the shaving result but expect draw all over the place

As to the pressure issue: I used very little to no pressure, but this time had the fingers of one hand spread on the spine of the blade which gave me the feeling of better control on pressure and distribution over the blade.

Well, this just as a status report. Thanks for your kind comments, of course more are welcome

Best regards,
-axel-

This may be not what you meant, but here's one thing I pay attention to...I watch the bevels. 10 to 1 most of our razors have a little longer, or wider, bevel on one side than the other. I know most of mine do, even the high-dollar ones. No matter if they're new out of the box. I keep an eye on these when I hone and apply slightly more pressure on the shorter side. Very very little more, mind you, but I'm conscious of it. I don't try to even the bevels in one honing, but I know that eventually they will even out if I keep this in mind. I believe the reason for concern in keeping even pressure on each side is so things don't get out of whack over time. I may not have the touch to keep the pressures perfectly even, but by keeping an eye on the bevels, at least I feel they will become and stay symmetrical...TP

Originally Posted by xman

ONE of the challenges I have been wrestling with in my honing is even pressure from one sides pass to the return.
X

Good point...

Thats something I've noticed also, those bevels. My two SRP razors, while honing them initially I couldn't figure out why I was having such a hard time with #38 while 39 was so easy and when I checked closely the bevels on 38 were so mismatched from one side to the other it was amazing.

As I've always said each razor is an individual and to try and give some magic formula which will work on all razors is impossible. The pyramid is a starting point only. As you hone you have to adjust the technique with each razor to see what works. trial and error and experience teaches you what you need to do each time. After 30 or 40 passes with no pressure and nothing happens it can be assumed that razor will require a tad more pressure. The degree of slurry on the hone will also show you how you are progressing. If your hone is turning black lighten up, if its not producing any slurry use a little more pressure and constantly test the blade. Its not rocket science.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Thats something I've noticed also, those bevels. My two SRP razors, while honing them initially I couldn't figure out why I was having such a hard time with #38 while 39 was so easy and when I checked closely the bevels on 38 were so mismatched from one side to the other it was amazing.

As I've always said each razor is an individual and to try and give some magic formula which will work on all razors is impossible. The pyramid is a starting point only. As you hone you have to adjust the technique with each razor to see what works. trial and error and experience teaches you what you need to do each time. After 30 or 40 passes with no pressure and nothing happens it can be assumed that razor will require a tad more pressure. The degree of slurry on the hone will also show you how you are progressing. If your hone is turning black lighten up, if its not producing any slurry use a little more pressure and constantly test the blade. Its not rocket science.

Nice post. Bevel symmetry, steel condition and other factors seem to affect razors significantly. You are right, it's not rocket science; anyone can build a rocket.

Larry

Originally Posted by aschaab

Currently what I do is start honing with both hands, away and towards me, leading the blade while holding it on both sides. Then, for the finer strokes, I turn the stone and move the blade left/right, with only one hand holding the razor, thumb on the shank and index finger below the shank, the grip resting in the palm. I imagine I can get a better feel for the lighter touch required at this stage.

Okay, first off I suspect we don't usually do ourselves any favours by switching up techniques. Consistency is the key. It may not be the razor. The IMPERCEPTIBLE difference between watching the first hone carefully and then on the next razor simply thinking, "I've got it now! It goes like this" with an honest attempt to duplicate what was just achieved and NOT getting the same results might be contributing to failure where we expect success.

To compensate for the different torsion from one side to the other, I have NOT tried to add more pressure, but instead simply added an extra lap or two in the neglected direction while working on altering my grip to give more symetrical results. That's another vote for consistency. Then when I make other slight (and that word's beginning to sound too extreme to my mind) alterations to the technique, rolling from heel to toe or adding more pressure on the pasted strop for example, I will have a better chance of knowing what is causing which result.

Originally Posted by aschaab

When you talk about doubling the pressure at the beginning, does this also apply to the 8k stage ? Or would this hurt the edge created on the 4k ?

I'd only suggest you add more pressure than you are currently using as a last resort and then only at the start of the pyramid. As for the difference between pressure from the 4k to 8k ... I currently believe (leaving room to change my mind) that equal pressure on the 8k is over smoothing the edge on me, so I'm working on simply keeping the razor stuck to the 4k to create the grooves and barely gliding it over the 8k to smooth it as gently as possible. This is especially true as I get to the end of the pyramid (which I agree works great though I'm not completely sure why yet). In fact as I finish up, a few extra ultra-gentle 1/3 reps often does better than leaving it at the 1/5's, which is why I'm being gentler on the 8k side.

Just another new honer,

X