Thread: Questions About Edge Longevity & Honing

You're right, it's not a big deal to refresh the blade on a barber hone - or a pasted strop or some other type high-grit finishing hone. As I mentioned above, one of my razors that had about four months of shaves on it recently received a quick touch-up on a barber hone. But if the razor doesn't need refreshing then why would you put it on the barber hone anyway if it won't make a noticeable improvement and has some risk of worsening the edge (bad mood, sleepiness, etc)?

As for why one might want to try and extend the life of his edge, that's another question. In my case I suspected the claims I was hearing around here were wildly exaggerated, but then I heard the same thing from members of my family whose fathers/grandfathers had used straights. So I decided to try and find out what was wrong with my technique that I was only getting 1-2 weeks out of my edges. At this point I've corrected the more glaring flaws and while I'm not really trying to make my edges last as long as possible, neither am I in any hurry to rehone them before they actually need it, because constantly refreshing my edges was actually disguising problems with my prep, stropping, and shaving technique that affected not only the life of the edges but also the quality and comfort of the shave.

Originally Posted by mparker762

You're right, it's not a big deal to refresh the blade on a barber hone - or a pasted strop or some other type high-grit finishing hone. As I mentioned above, one of my razors that had about four months of shaves on it recently received a quick touch-up on a barber hone. But if the razor doesn't need refreshing then why would you put it on the barber hone anyway if it won't make a noticeable improvement and has some risk of worsening the edge (bad mood, sleepiness, etc)?

Well, sleepiness, bad mood, etc. can sabotage regular stropping at least as easily as it can using a barber's hone. Stropping involves many more strokes and the surface is flexible, not flat (at least if you're not using a paddle or loom).

I certainly would not advocate going to the barber's hone when the razor's shaving without pulling. My point was simply that it isn't really an inconvenience to hit the barber hone even as often as once a week if the razor is in fact in need of a touch up. I don't really pay attention to how many days or weeks between touchups. The thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if I can go another week / month without a touch-up" just never crosses my mind. That was my only point. Not an important one, admittedly.

Well I don't know about all of this.

I agree if you use the same razor all the time or maybe alternate between two or so as the edge starts to dull you won't notice it and its really amazing how you do get used to it and its only if you switch to a "sharp" razor that you realize. I found that out years ago when I was doing "the grand experiment" and I was using the same 3 razorss day in and day out. Every so often I would switch to a fourth I knew was sharp so I could gauge how the others were deteriorating.

Otherwise with me I have a daily rotation with about 30 razors so as soon as 1 deteriorates the slightest amount I'm very much aware of it. I have a few I have been using for well over a year, some for years now and have not had to even touch up once but in general about 15 -20 shaves and the comfort factor starts to go even though it still gives a bbs shave and for me a few trips on the coticule or escher and its as good as new(or shave ready which is better than new actually)

Well, I've only recently added to my collection and before that I had a DOVO Black Star that I used day in and day out for months with no major change to the edge. And I do have a fairly tough beard.

I got that one from Trumpers, and they do an excellent job at honing razors. Need to go there for some lessons of something...!

When I got my newest two they both came shave ready (one from The Invisible Edge and one from SRD, so both are light sabre sharp!) and I could tell, very marginally, that the Black Star was duller. Half a dozen to a dozen strokes on my Shapton 16k for that one and the edges on all three are absolutely A1, I just cant tell the difference between them.

I think whats made the difference is the stropping and the almost obsessive care I take of them. I do 25 canvas with white paste then 50-60 leather before hand, then 10 canvas and 10-15 leather afterwards. I dont do loads of passes during the shave having worked out a routine that gets me BBS with one pass only.

I also make sure they are bone dry before I put them away and I use two different clothes to dry them, just to make sure they are really dry! I'll also take them out now and then and make sure they are still good, with no little spots forming. If there are any, out comes the MAAS and a Q-Tip.

I really think that the white chalk paste is the secret weapon to keeping an edge shave ready. Its very slightly abrasive and the 25 strokes just seems to repair the damage done by the last shave. I know I'll have to go to a coarser grit stone eventually but this seems to be working at the moment...!

Originally Posted by mparker762

They aren't going without maintenance. They're just being maintained with the strop instead of the hone. Both ways work.

So, after coming back to this thread after a few days, I feel I should mention a couple things.

First, I'm not doubting the claims members are making, but rather giving them the benefit of the doubt; This is the internet after all, you can claim whatever you want, but I'll leave it at that. And I don't want to turn this into another sharpness thread, or lack thereof thread. My edges provide comfortable shaves, so I shouldn't be complaining. BUT... they're not lasting for months or years like some of the accounts that have been posted very recently. I guess I'm shooting at par.....

Second, as for the maintenance issue, as rightfully pointed out by mparker762, he is correct. I was recovering from a late night when I typed my original post. I MEANT to say any maintenance outside of the usual linen/plain leather stropping.

Originally Posted by mparker762

I think you're misunderstanding what's happening. The edge is lasting longer at the same level of sharpness. If you're using the same blade every day then it probably does get duller than if you were alternating, because as it slowly dulls your technique adapts to compensate and you don't really realize how dull it's really getting.

No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well I don't know about all of this.

I agree if you use the same razor all the time or maybe alternate between two or so as the edge starts to dull you won't notice it and its really amazing how you do get used to it and its only if you switch to a "sharp" razor that you realize. I found that out years ago when I was doing "the grand experiment" and I was using the same 3 razorss day in and day out. Every so often I would switch to a fourth I knew was sharp so I could gauge how the others were deteriorating.

Otherwise with me I have a daily rotation with about 30 razors so as soon as 1 deteriorates the slightest amount I'm very much aware of it. I have a few I have been using for well over a year, some for years now and have not had to even touch up once but in general about 15 -20 shaves and the comfort factor starts to go even though it still gives a bbs shave and for me a few trips on the coticule or escher and its as good as new(or shave ready which is better than new actually)

I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.



I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

I still think you're still misunderstanding something, or at least focusing on the wrong things. You seem to think that this aforementioned adaptation is the key to keeping a razor going, that somehow the razor is really getting dull but the user just doesn't realize it, so after a few months of use the razor will be in terrible shape. This isn't necessarily true.

The adaptation to a single razor ("fidelity" in DE parlance) tends to improve your shaves, and is a benefit to using the same razor every day, but it is not central to edge longevity. It was just something I noticed during my longevity experiments. The adaptation to the slowly dulling razor also happens, but it is not central to edge longevity - it is something to be aware of as the months roll by, and if you're really worried about how the edge is wearing then maybe you might want to recalibrate your senses with another razor because your internal sharpness sensor starts to drift. But that is all. The edge does not last longer because you just don't realize it is getting dull - it lasts longer at a given level of sharpness.

Your resistance to believing that the edge really can last for months or years is understandable. If you go back and read the "stropping is king" thread you'll see the same skepticism from the participants - including myself.

I believe this skepticism is what is causing your confusion over Sham's post - because you really don't believe (despite giving us the benefit of the doubt) that the edge really can last for an extended period of use without appreciable wear, Sham's post sounds contradictory. But 45 days isn't terribly much of the life of an edge that may last for 300 days, after all - so why shouldn't it be as sharp as the day it was honed, or at least close enough that it's difficult to tell? If the end state of the edge is "dull" then yes one would expect to see a fair level of degradation, but if in fact the edge only wears as much in that year as some guys get in a week or two, then 45 days of use just isn't much, about an equivalent level of wear as some guys get in a single shave. From what I've seen on my razors they generally shave *better* after a few weeks than they did when they came off the hone, because the improvement by smoothing and polishing from the leather and linen is greater than the degradation of the edge from stresses of daily shaving. After a month or so this turns around and the edge slowly declines. For my Heljestrand it has been imperceptible, and I do switch up my razors every now and then to make sure I'm not fooling myself. It isn't my sharpest razor at the moment, but then it never has been. It's still sharper than several razors that have very little use on them, but not as sharp as some others. What I'm trying to say is that it is nearly sharp as the day it came off the hone, close enough that there isn't a huge difference. There's probably as much day-to-day variation in the edge of this razor just from normal variations in stropping (from caffeination level, late night, general crankiness) than there is between this razor and my other Heljestrands that have seen only a few shaves. The decline isn't a straight line by any means, sometimes it goes off a bit for a day or two then some careful attention to my stropping technique brings it back to where it was or even better than it was before. If I'm so inclined I can still strop this razor so it's sharper than I really like to shave with. This was one of the big things I learned in my initial edge longevity experiments, and I alluded to it in an earlier post in this thread - that I didn't have to reach for the hone whenever a razor started getting dull, that usually the true culprit was my stropping, which had gotten a bit off and needed correction.

I haven't been doin this long enough to tell - how do your edges dull over time? It's been measured in knives that there is an immediate and dramatic drop in sharpness, which then lessens to a much more gradual decline. It seems that with proper technique, shaving hair just isn't enough work for the edge to cause that initial loss of sharpness, and it is easily countered by stropping without paste (which Verhoeven didn't even notice having an effect in his experiment on an unused edge) Does the edge eventually succumb to fatigue? Possibly more from the stropping than the shaving?

Are we talking exclusively carbon steel or are the razors that last for months, etc., stainless steel? I was under the impression that stainless steel would hold the edge longer, but would require more effort to hone.

I still very much believe that you should be able to get between 2-3 months with a razor before re-honing if used daily with good stropping technique. Some folks may get a little less and some a little more. This belief is from actually experiencing this, doubt or not. Like much in this sport, there is a learning curve which applies to shaving, stropping, honing and the main thing that you learn is that when you think you have it down, there is still more to learn.

Impatience is still the biggest problem we have with newer folks combined with the fact that it is always the fault of anything other than the operator.

The advices from mparker762 and thebigspendor have been spot on in this thread.

Have fun,

Lynn