Thread: The goal of polishing the edge?

Originally Posted by economica

An addendum, I wanted to say that I have read in posts, that some people believe that the pyramids work better as technique for actual "scientific" reasons. I have not been able to actually find these explanations but I have no reason to think they are not true. I do know that the system works, but I don't think it is guaranteed that one set of pyramids will get you where want to be. Eventually, they will get you there, but you may need a couple of repetitions, sometimes one will work, other times 2 or 3.

+1 IME. My guess is that if it doesn't work in 3 tries it is technique. Look back at the fundementals of pressure, stroke and check if the bevel is adequately set.

Referring to the pyramid method, I spoke to one of the most noted honers around and IIRC he said. "I don't know why it works but it does."

I've not done a whole lot of research into the pyramids, so please educate me on this. I always thought the point of the pyramids was that it gives you a pretty good chance at getting a good edge without you actually having to have the touch and feel of a pro. I'm just guessing, but I always thought that guys who were pretty proficient at honing didn't really use a pyramid, but could tell from experience when to go to the next hone. Essentially, the pyramid does work and is good because it takes some of the "guess work" out. Am I off base with that?

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I've not done a whole lot of research into the pyramids, so please educate me on this. I always thought the point of the pyramids was that it gives you a pretty good chance at getting a good edge without you actually having to have the touch and feel of a pro. I'm just guessing, but I always thought that guys who were pretty proficient at honing didn't really use a pyramid, but could tell from experience when to go to the next hone. Essentially, the pyramid does work and is good because it takes some of the "guess work" out. Am I off base with that?

What I read when I first came around was that a new honer was less likely to over hone an edge using the pyramid method. I learned on that method and continued with it unless I was honing with naturals. In either case I would set the bevel with a synthetic in the 1k neighborhood and then if using synthetics do the pyramid in the 4/8 or the Japanese grit chart equivalent. From there I go back to progressive.

Two of the best honers IMO that I know, who have forgotten more about honing then I know, use pyramids. So being of the "if it works don't fix it" school of thought when using synthetics I am not self conscious about being a pyramid practitioner.

Originally Posted by bjanzen

I have done the progression that Tim Zowanda has on his site (Think that is his) and found it quite sharp and worked well but have weepers and 6 shaves tops before touchups needed.

Bet you didn't try it on one of his razors. Only had a couple of shaves with a Zowada razor & I can say they are mind blowing sharp but I experienced no weepers. Can't speak about the edge durability but I would bet his 60+ HRC Damascus holds an edge.
My point is that the steel & heat treat can also have an influence in your results as well as your honing skill especially in regards to durability..

Originally Posted by economica

Hi everyone,
......
My question is this: What exactly is the goal when polishing the edge.
......
Thanks.

This has turned into a long thread.
The simple answer is that the goal is a good shave.
Cut whiskers and not cut meat.

Since I had the honour of carving the turkey this year perhaps
addressing the other side of the question (cut meat) might make
some sense.

First the motion is a slicing motion for meat not a pushing motion
as used in shaving.

To carve a roasted bird I like a very fine but slightly toothy edge.

In the kitchen when working on a raw chunk of meat I like a more
polished edge. I find I can get it to slide along tendon and silver skin
and waste less.

On my face I want the edge to slide on skin and cut whiskers.

This link is interesting if dated:
WONDER PHOTOS REVEAL UNSUSPECTED FACTS ABOUT Razor Blades and Shaving

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Hi Barry, well the pyramid method is proven.............. Not everyone who tries it likes it though and if you're getting satisfactory results with a progressive method that is fine too.
.............You might try the pyramid again though as it is a good way to get a razor sharp IME.

Jimmy,

Thanks for the help. I know the pyramid is proven and I will try it again after I can get a little more experience. I want to compare it to the progressive and decide for myself. I don't know why it didn't work but with more experience it may work better than what I am doing now

Today I called the Senior Honemeister himself and had a wonderful hour of one on one guidance. Maybe the fact that we both like building flyrods helped.... Anyways he gave me several pointers and I spent the entire evening on two razors. I did a straight progression of 1k,4k,8k, Naguara, CroOx on balsa, strop. The first blade I worked on for close to two hours and it never would shave until I got done with the CromOx.

Now...The second blade was shave ready in twenty minutes. It got ten strokes on each stone and 15 on the CromOx. It was popping arm hairs after 4K Don't know what the difference was.....Gotta figure that out........

Shaved briefly with each and I am pleased at this point. Finally have made some good progress. Will shave with both in the morning and see what I think. Still have a LONG ways to go but I am a lot closer than I was.

Barry

Originally Posted by economica

Barry,
Unlike Jimmy, I use a microscope to check the edge ............ If still not good enough go back and do the pyramid again. Repeat until you get where you want to be. On the other hand if you find that things don't improve after repeating a pyramid then the technique probably needs refinement?

I know my technique is not there yet but I use a scope over and over to understand how I am changing things. It has really helped me. Still don't know why one blade worked well tonight and the other didn't. I tried several things and worked real well on the bevel setting. It was there I think but wouldn't cut until I polished it with the CromOx

WELLLLL,

To get back to topic here.... Tonight my experience showed a HUGE difference between the 8K and the CroOx polishing in my blades ability to cut. I found additional sharpness gained by honing with the CroOx balsa hone.

I test shaved before and after the CroOx and it wouldn't cut before and after it was BBS with ease. I was shocked!

Originally Posted by bjanzen

I know my technique is not there yet but I use a scope over and over to understand how I am changing things. It has really helped me. Still don't know why one blade worked well tonight and the other didn't. I tried several things and worked real well on the bevel setting. It was there I think but wouldn't cut until I polished it with the CromOx

Weird, even under the scope you could not discern a difference between the two edges. Did both edges appear very flat and even and yet one of them still did not shave well?

Originally Posted by economica

Weird, even under the scope you could not discern a difference between the two edges. Did both edges appear very flat and even and yet one of them still did not shave well?

I am still baffled on that blade. I worked and worked to get it to cut arm hair at 4K. Never did. My other blade had 10 X strokes on 1k, then 10 X strokes on 4K and was popping arm hair. This one never would. I honed and honed and no luck. It was nice and sticky with the TPT and looked like a great bevel under the 100x scope view. Finally I decided to just finish the honing and test shaved after 8K and no luck. Wouldn't pop arm hair. The other blade was incredible after 8K. Finally after the polishing on CromOx it started cutting. Seemed like the better shaver of the two blades!