Thread: Leo's Daddy Learns to Hone (picture heavy)

Olafurson, if you want the best of shaves off a coti, Sir Bart is the Master IMHO, check out his website and the methods outlined there, they work better than most would imagine

Hooray! Thank you for writing, Bart! Now THIS is some serious education going on!!

I really, REALLY did not mean to offend by suggesting that Aquanin was bothered by your use of tape. The American is in fact an old, abused wedge razor that you helped bring back to life and was sold to me after passing through a few other hands.

****-poor choice of words on my part, and I apologize to the both of you. Sorry, Aquanin. Sorry, Bart.

I bow to both of you.

Now, may we please forget that ever happened?

Moving on...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Unicot method required electrical tape in step 5. So clearly you do not yourself use that method often, and I choose to forget you even mentioned it. My brain can only hold so many options.

After reading coticule.be, I was confused about the necessity of pressure-on-spine during the x-stroke on a coticule, thank you for the clarification.

So essentially, what I'm reading is that you're suggesting that the coticule with slurry is unable to correct a bevel without the application of pressure on the spine of the razor, and forget about the BBW altogether for bevel correction. I pretty much wasted my time last night, and made a good razor edge into a crappy one by sloshing it through BBW slurry. Gotcha. Lesson learned.

Honestly, I have only used the coticule/BBW a few times, and have never seen any gray so I'm obviously not using it right. Again, I misunderstood the "you must see gray or you're not pushing down hard enough" thing.

I see no particular reason why a half-stroke would be more effective than a full x-stroke, if the stroke is the same and pressure is applied, but I am certainly no expert and if you say it's better I'll take your word for it. Perhaps you use half-strokes because the sheer number of strokes required on a coticule for bevel correction would lead to muscle exhaustion and error if the razor were continually flipped in an x-stroke?

Anyways, here's the plan for tonight:

1. Coticule with slurry, finger pressure enough to make the slurry turn gray within 10 strokes. Continue for 20-30 half-strokes on each side of the razor, then look at the edge to see if it's being "corrected" evenly on each side, and do a sharpness test of some kind. If it fails, do another 30 half-strokes on each side and test again. Repeat 2-20 times until it finally passes the HHT.

2. When the HHT is passed, dilute the slurry with a few drops of water, and do another 20 laps. Few more drops, 20 laps. Few more drops, 20 laps until the slurry is almost gone. I assume pressure is still used at this point, and even more "gray" will be produced?? This is unclear... but I guess I'll find out tonight!

3. Flip to BBW, thin slurry, 50-100 laps with not quite the lightest pressure.

4. Coticule with water, 60 laps, lightest (no pressure).

All this stuff you just wrote me? THAT I have printed out and will bring me to Day 2 of my honing experiment.

Thank you for your time!!!

Ok heres the way I see it and some of the ways i do it,

1/2 strokes give you speed, i can do 30 each side in seconds

when correcting the bevel the benchmark to move forward and start diluting the slurry is shaving arm hair, you simply will not pass hht test at that stage of the hone

The grey you are going to see is steel, you will have diluted the sluury far enough that its little more than water and steel

A few points to watch, dont let the slurry get too dry, even if you dont think its yet ready for water, sticky slurry makes for dull edges

as you add water use less and less pressure, if you are getting it about right, the leading edge should cut through the slurry/water on the stone, and your blade should pick it right up, so that at the end of your stroke the mix that was on the hone is now sitting on top of the blade.

Hope this helps, above all relax and enjoy, remember its better to spend 20 minutes a night relaxing over this than a 4 hour session that will lead you stressed and sore

Best wishes and the very best of luck

Originally Posted by olafurson

I really, REALLY did not mean to offend by suggesting that Aquanin was bothered by your use of tape. The American is in fact an old, abused wedge razor that you helped bring back to life and was sold to me after passing through a few other hands.

****-poor choice of words on my part, and I apologize to the both of you. Sorry, Aquanin. Sorry, Bart.

May we please forget that ever happened?

No harm done, I just wanted to avoid any misunderstandings about my honing. I' ve seen a razor put up for sale with the claim "shaveready - honed by Bart of SRP", months after I honed it. None of that is your (or Aquanin's) fault, and I may have responded a bit itchy.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Unicot method required electrical tape in step 5. So clearly you do not yourself use that method often, and I choose to forget you even mentioned it. My brain can only hold so many options.

I don't use it for commissioned honing, because a double bevel is not commonly accepted among straight razor users. Furthermore, I prefer the more challenging and therefor more rewarding "Dilucot" method, but not because it gives better results than the "Unicot" procedure.

Originally Posted by olafurson

So essentially, what I'm reading is that you're suggesting that the coticule with slurry is unable to correct a bevel without the application of pressure on the spine of the razor, and forget about the BBW altogether for bevel correction. Gotcha.

You put it a bit too strongly, but you're about to find out how much faster your Coticule will cut if you just place your finger on the blade. You don't even need to consciously apply extra pressure.

Originally Posted by olafurson

I see no particular reason why a half-stroke would be more effective than a full x-stroke, if the stroke is the same and pressure is applied, but I am certainly no expert and if you say it's better I'll take your word for it. Perhaps you use half-strokes because the sheer number of strokes required on a coticule for bevel correction would lead to muscle exhaustion and error if the razor were continually flipped in an x-stroke?

Not really, I can keep a steady stroke for a long time. It's like when someone learns to play guitar. In the beginning, your fingers ache, your muscles cramp, and you can't imagine how someone could keep at it for hours. Only later, it becomes second nature. You'll forget what you ever found so difficult about it... The same counts for honing strokes. But flipping a blade with a finger on top of the razor is downright dangerous, certainly when performed with speed. That's why it's a bit faster and easier to keep working at the same side for a while. It is a well-known fact that a Coticule produces almost no burrs. Even when you're honing a kitchen knife on one, where a burr is deliberately aimed for during the first stages of sharpening with real wrist pressure, it's hard to get a burr of a Coticule. Hence you can stay for 20 or even more back and forth laps on one side of the razor without any problems. As long as you copy them to the other side as well.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Anyways, here's the plan for tonight:

1. Coticule with slurry, finger pressure enough to make the slurry turn gray within 10 strokes. Continue for 20-30 half-strokes on each side of the razor, then look at the edge to see if it's being "corrected" evenly on each side, and do a sharpness test of some kind. If it fails, do another 30 half-strokes on each side and test again. Repeat 2-20 times until it finally passes the HHT.

The plan is sound, but you won't pass the HHT at this stage. Use the downstroke on glass instead and work till the razor shaves arm hair. At that point the bevel is ready. The downstroke is just required to get rid of all false positive readings on your possibly convex bevel.

Originally Posted by olafurson

2. When the shave arm hair mark is passed, dilute the slurry with a few drops of water, and do another 20 laps. Few more drops, 20 laps. Few more drops, 20 laps until the slurry is almost gone. I assume pressure is still used at this point, and even more "gray" will be produced??

Your slurry should look quite dirty by now, which is okay. It even helps the consistency when there's steel in the mixture. Somehow it helps the slurry stay better on the hone. During this stage your edge will gain keenness, and you will notice how it improves shaving, and if you learn how to read the TPT, that will reveal things as well.
But you're still to early for the HHT, although it should start to play violin, and could pass, if you use thick but fragile hair.

Originally Posted by olafurson

3. Flip to BBW, thin slurry, 50-100 laps with not quite the lightest pressure.
4. Coticule with water, 60 laps, lightest (no pressure).

Correct. Only now, you should try passing the HHT with a clean (freshly washed when you harvested it) thick hair.
It's ok if you need to drag it across the edge a bit before it catches and pops.
Strop the blade well on a good linen and next leather.
The HHT will show clear improvement after that.
The goal of a HHT is not to just pass it, bit to learn how the hair you use responds to your honing, and how all that correlates to the shaves you get. Once you learn that, it saves you a lot of trips back and forth between test shaving and more honing.

Originally Posted by olafurson

All this stuff you just wrote me? THAT I have printed out and will bring me to Day 2 of my honing experiment.

Thank you for your time!!!

My pleasure. Keep us posted.

Bart.

Greg, have you checked out this thread:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...eo-series.html

and more importantly the videos it contains? There is a lot of information in those 9 vids that can take you from setting a bevel through to finishing with advanced strokes and the theory behind it all. It's a good watch for anyone who hasn't seen them really, whether you use the information in them or not.

Bart, as you have learned, is the best. The time, effort, and wisdom he has put into helping folks like you and me deserves public acknowledgment.

It's easy to get lost, confused, and disoriented. Please look at his description of the Unicot method described on his website and elsewhere. Forget everything else, even (forgive me, Bart) what's in this thread. As Bart says in the article, follow the Unicot directions exactly. Forget everything else you've heard or read. Don't imagine for a second that you have a better idea, a shortcut, or a brainstorm. The directions are simple and easy to do. They fill less than a full page. Just follow them. Assuming your stroke is adequate, and the blade is undamaged and reasonably regular, in 30 minutes to an hour you will have the sweetest edge you could hope for.

Please. Just. Do. This.

Originally Posted by pcb01

Bart, as you have learned, is the best. The time, effort, and wisdom he has put into helping folks like you and me deserves public acknowledgment.

It's easy to get lost, confused, and disoriented. Please look at his description of the Unicot method described on his website and elsewhere. Forget everything else, even (forgive me, Bart) what's in this thread. As Bart says in the article, follow the Unicot directions exactly. Forget everything else you've heard or read. Don't imagine for a second that you have a better idea, a shortcut, or a brainstorm. The directions are simple and easy to do. They fill less than a full page. Just follow them. Assuming your stroke is adequate, and the blade is undamaged and reasonably regular, in 30 minutes to an hour you will have the sweetest edge you could hope for.

Please. Just. Do. This.

That about sums it up, just try it EXACTLY as its written, stop for a smoke if you do, a cuppa tea maybe? but dont however DONT stray from the path.
I will also ask you please. and let us all know what happened?
Many many thanks

DAY 2 is on!!!

So a good day to you all, Gentlemen!

I've been doing some thinking since both of Bart's replies to my original post, and I spent a good whack of my afternoon watching all of the honing videos in the Wiki. (if you have not done so, you SERIOUSLY need to do it before you pick up a hone. My mistake...)

I've decided not to try setting my bevel with the coticule today, as Bart had suggested. Sorry, fellas. Maybe next time.

It seems apparent to me I misunderstood the ideal use of the coticule, and when I asked a friend on the SRP board which hone I should get if I wanted only one hone, I asked the wrong question.

I'm trying to sort all this out in my little brain, so here is what I took from the videos. Feel free to pick any of this apart if it's not correct:

1. A coticule is a great stone for polishing an already-sharp razor at the end stages in your progression of honing. For the sake of this post and to clear things up in my own mind, I would like to think of the coticule-with-water as equivalent to perhaps a 10000 grit hone (since I have a Norton 4K/8K to compare to, and the coticule is supposedly "finer" than the Norton 8K).

2. A coticule with slurry is faster at removing steel, especially with a tiny bit of finger pressure. But it's still pretty darn slow. Let's say... a little slower than the Norton 4000?

3. A Belgian Blue Whetstone with slurry can in my mind be thought of as, let's say, a 6000 grit hone. Not as fast as the Norton 4000, not as slow as the Norton 8000 or Coticule.

So here is my TOTALLY INACCURATE BUT USEFUL FOR ME list in decreasing order of speed of steel removal:
1000 GRIT: Norton 1000
1200 GRIT: DMT D8E 8" Dia-Sharp 1200 grit diamond bench stone (next on my shopping list)
---------
4000 GRIT: Norton 4000
4000? GRIT: Coticule w/ Slurry
---------
6000? GRIT: BBW w/ Slurry
---------
8000 GRIT: Norton 8000
10000? GRIT: Coticule w/ water

2. A razor that is dull and will not shave, but has no obvious chips in the blade, should be honed beginning with an approximately 1000 grit stone for fastest bevel setting. Some like the DMT D8E 8" 1200 grit diamond stone, others like the Norton 1000 water stone, etc. You can do it with a Norton 4K or BBW with slurry if you want, but it'll take you a LOT longer because those are finer/smoother surfaces and remove steel much slower.

3. A razor that shaves but is not keen (ie: fails the thumb pad test) may be honed starting on a 4000 grit stone, or BBW with slurry, with the potential for lots of passes needed as its worst case scenario, or on a 1000 grit stone with the potential for unnecessarily losing steel as its worst case scenario. At the end of the day, either way will work.

4. A razor that passes the thumb pad test is keen ("sharp") but needs refinement ("polishing"). This may require a 4000 grit stone or coticule w/ slurry or BBW w/ slurry (slower) if it needs LOTS of refinement, or may be ready to be finished on an 8000 grit stone or coticule with water.

5. The Norton 4000/8000 stone is not an ideal bevel setter for dull razors because 1000 grit is faster for bevel setting than 4000. Nor is the 8000 side as good a finishing stone as a coticule. So it's pretty much only good to be used BETWEEN those two. Some people even skip directly from the 1000 grit to the coticule.

6. Because the ideal honing progression for a dull but not chipped razor includes a 1000 grit hone followed by a 4000 grit hone followed by an 8000+ grit hone, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all hone. Unless you want to spend a BOATLOAD of time setting the bevel with your 4000 grit stone.

----------------------

So, having said all that, this is what happened this evening. First, my new setup: Norton 220/1000, Norton 4000/8000, Norton "flattening stone" (not pictured), BBW/Coti, and the Emerald Wapi:


Here's my Norton 4000 side:


And the Norton 8000 side:


Now, skipping ahead a little, you can see by these pictures that there is some weird discoloration, especially on the 4000. In hindsight, I should have gotten rid of that before trying to use them to hone. Whoops!

I ended up actually using ALL of the hones on the Emerald, even the 220. Why?!? Well, here was my (in hindsight, flawed) reasoning. When I set the wapi on the 4000 stone, the edge was visibly not contacting the stone at all points (sadly, I didn't take a photo of this). So I figured that meant I needed to use a coarse grit stone to flatten it out. Because SURELY the Norton CAME FROM THE FACTORY FLAT, right?

Nope.

Anyways, I honed a little more steel off the wapi than I probably needed to on the 220, but I was gentle and only did 15 passes or so. Then I went back and forth between the 1000, 4000 and 8000 a few times, getting my feel for the stones, seeing what happened re: the thumbpad test and arm hair test on each stone and how it looked under the light...

No arm hair left!


I never did get the edge to be uniformly shiny all along the blade, but I now believe that's because I hadn't properly lapped the stones - that theory will be tested on Day 3!

After messing around for way too long, I remembered something they said on the video, that it was darn near impossible to overhone on a coticule. So I spent a good ten minutes back and forth on just the coti with water, polishing the heck out of whatever crummy bevel I had set.

THEN... I took the Norton Flattening Stone, and re-lapped ALL the stones, AND chamferred the edges. That was a good half-hour of work right there. Here's my new-and-improved set of stones ready for Day 3! The flattening stone is the one at the top of the photo:


Now, on to the shave. I took back something I promised myself on Day 1. I decided to use a known shave-ready Wapi during my shave to test myself (and make sure I was acceptable for work!).

Here's my SOTD:


Honestly? I did a pretty good job with Day 2 of honing!!! What I did was after each section of a pass (eg: WTG on the cheeks) I followed the Emerald Wapi with the shave-ready Wapi to see how much extra stubble was removed. I think I'm about 80% of the way there!

But, the story isn't over. Sadly, while I was doing nothing more than picking the Emerald Wapi up for a pass, I heard a little pop noise and found that my snazzy scales had simply snapped. RATS!!!


Stupid burl... note to self: do NOT try to make un-lined scales out of burl. D'ohh!! If anyone reading this is willing to take on the project of lining these scales with some metal or something and repairing them so I can use them again, I would REEEEEALLY appreciate it. Please?!?

Day 3 tonight....

Greg,

If you want some more burl, I would be happy to send you the pieces you sent me back. I haven't done anything with them yet so they are still nice and rough. Completely up to you.

Drew

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

If you want some more burl, I would be happy to send you the pieces you sent me back. I haven't done anything with them yet so they are still nice and rough. Completely up to you.

Thanks, dude. I hoped you would offer so I could say no thanks. It's apparent to me that this material is not strong enough (nor weighty enough) for scales by itself, so I'd rather have the broken ones repaired and lined. Plus, this way, now these scales have even more CHARACTER, and I've got a story I can tell Leo!