Thread: Leo's Daddy Learns to Hone (picture heavy)

Before anything else: in my humble opinion, you're brewing up a recipe that will put a lot of future frustration on your path. That recipe is called "jumping tracks". It's best to stick with one tried and trued paradigm, when you're new to honing. Right now, from what I read in your posts, I think the best approach for you is pyramids on the Norton 4K/8K. If you get it shaving, a few swipes on the Coticule won't do any harm.

Originally Posted by olafurson

It seems apparent to me I misunderstood the ideal use of the coticule, and when I asked a friend on the SRP board which hone I should get if I wanted only one hone, I asked the wrong question.

There is no ideal use of a Coticule. You can use it as a finisher, you can use it for setting bevels, you can use it as a mediator before another finisher. And for each of those uses I could spell you out what the advantages and the disadvantages were, just like that could be done for other hones.

Originally Posted by olafurson

I'm trying to sort all this out in my little brain, so here is what I took from the videos. Feel free to pick any of this apart if it's not correct:

1.I would like to think of the coticule-with-water as equivalent to perhaps a 10000 grit hone (since I have a Norton 4K/8K to compare to, and the coticule is supposedly "finer" than the Norton 8K).

If you're going to think in grit numbers, you better sell your Coticule and buy Naniwas or Shaptons instead. A Coticule is not finer or rougher than a Norton 8K. Is is just very different. Furthermore, someone with a good honing stroke, will put a better edge on a razor with a 6K hone than a heavy-handed guy with a 16K hone. Not that it means anything, but the Garnets in a Coticule have a median size equivalent to 1.5K, by the way.

Originally Posted by olafurson

2. A coticule with slurry is faster at removing steel, especially with a tiny bit of finger pressure. But it's still pretty darn slow. Let's say... a little slower than the Norton 4000?

More on par with a 1K stone, actually

Originally Posted by olafurson

3. A Belgian Blue Whetstone with slurry can in my mind be thought of as, let's say, a 6000 grit hone. Not as fast as the Norton 4000, not as slow as the Norton 8000 or Coticule.

See the remark above.

Never use a 220 grit hone on a razor, but you already figured that one out, I guess.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Here's my problem with the physics/geometry of the Unicot aka double bevel method. What happens when my razor gets dull again? I can't just take it to the coticule with no tape and touch up the first bevel, because only the second bevel has been doing the actual cutting. Fixing the first bevel wouldn't suffice, I'd have to set another second bevel as well.

You can easily touch up the narrow secondary bevel, with about 30 laps on the Coticule with water. Of course you need to reattach the tape.

Originally Posted by olafurson

And I can't just add a piece of tape and touch up the second bevel, because now with the original second bevel gone, the edge of the first bevel is super-blunt instead of just a little bit blunt.

No. It doesn't get any more blunt than a single bevel. The secondary bevel looses some keenness after a number of shaves, just like a single bevel does.

Originally Posted by olafurson

The first bevel would HAVE to be set again before a second bevel could be. Otherwise the second bevel will get wider and wider every time I touch up the razor.

Yes, it does become wider, but you can still do touch-ups. Even when the secondary bevel has completely wiped out the initial bevel, you can keep doing touch-ups, certainly on a full hollow ground razor.
On the other hand, you can also reduce the width of the secondary bevel by honing without tape. No need to completely reset it.

Originally Posted by olafurson

So essentially, I'm dooming myself to requiring taping the blade for touch-ups. And not only that, I'd have to go through the ENTIRE Unicot procedure every darn time I want to touch up the razor, as would anyone else I lend/sell/give the razor to.

Bah.

If I knew your preference for colorful language, I would have swallowed my comment about Aquanin's razor yesterday.

If you don't like to tape a razor, than don't use that method. It's that simple. But you don't need to go through the entire procedure for touching up the razor.

Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Good plan!

I second that. Way too many suggestions in this thread. Honing is not that complicated. You'd better focus on learning a good X-stroke, than on finding some magical honing paradigm.

Best regards,
Bart.

This is my best thread ever! You guys are awesome.

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies!

I promise I'm not trying to argue, just learn.

I do not believe in magic. However, I know there is more to life than looking under a microscope to see if my razor's edge is perfect enough. And I do NOT want to be one of those guys who brags about how high his hone's grit count is.

Originally Posted by Bart

Way too many suggestions in this thread.

I totally agree. That's where I'm coming from, as someone new to the whole honing thing. I spent only one afternoon looking up information on honing, and I found one guy using just a Norton 4k/8k and pyramids, then another guy who likes setting bevels with the Naniwa Superstone 5K better, then a third guy who doesn't use pyramids at all and just uses his thumb to tell when he's done on the 1200 grit diamond stone for bevel setting, etc etc... there are as many "recommended" honing methods as there are stones!!!

What's a noob to do?!

That's the purpose of this thread. I'm trying to distill all that random information down into a permanent, workable solution that works for me.

I am willing to accept that even Lynn Abrams is unable to put a better edge on a blade with a 30K ceramic stone than he can with a 10K or 12K stone, or Bart can with a coticule. Good, great, that limits me to either 10K/12K stones or a coticule for finishing, one of which I already own (the coti). Problem solved, I don't need to look for finish stones anymore. Coticule it is. Not because it's the best, but because it'll work and it's what I have. If I had a Chinese 12K, I'd stick with that. If I had an Escher or Shapton 12K or whatever, same thing. Even in my uneducated state, I can see no reason to have more than one polishing/finishing hone except just for fun. You guys only have to tell me "bevel setting is way more important than the fineness of your finishing polish stone" so many times before I get it. Got it.

I am also willing to accept that nothing over 5K will set a bevel on a razor. I currently own a 4K stone that requires no fancy moves to make it ready to hone except soaking it in a tub of water, and a coticule that takes at least some manipulation (slurrying) to make it capable of honing at the 1K level. Neither of these is particularly attractive to me, and here's why.

First, my argument against the coticule as bevel-setter. It's been suggested that a coticule can finish a razor at least as well as an 8K stone, yet set a bevel as well as a 1K stone just by slurrying the surface up. Don't you understand how that would mess someone up? Why couldn't someone just make a slurry on a Norton 8K and use it just like you're advocating use of the coticule with a slurry? What's the difference? Wouldn't that do the same thing? Has anyone ever tried?

I'm saying, for me, why not just use those precious little voodoo garnets in the coticule for the job they're world-renowned for - finishing - and use some el cheapo steel or ceramic or otherwise artificial jobby for the brute-force bevel-setting stuff?

My coticule was expensive. A 1200 grit hone is cheap and industrial-strength unbreakable, I can get one in diamond-on-steel for, like, $50 from a hundred different websites. I'd rather preserve my rare, special, fancy coticule from the one mine in the whole world that makes them, for my lifetime AND my son's lifetime and HIS son's lifetime, rather than keep slurrying it away little by little. That just feels... wrong. I don't have some big stack of coticules to use, I've only got my one-and-only that I hope to never have to replace.

Which currently leaves me with using my 4K Norton or 1K Norton for setting bevels. Or, I can use my Norton 220/1000 on my kitchen knives and replace it as needed, buy a new 1200 grit hone for bulk razor steel removal that will probably last my lifetime, use the 4K/8K for pyramid work, and the coticule for finishing if I feel like it.

Both of those sound like good ideas to me. For now, since I already own the Norton 1K, I plan to use it and the 4K/8K pyramid per gugi's recommendation during my next session. I might replace it later with the DMT D8E, we'll see.

The pyramid thing seems a little too cookbook for me and I'm doubtful, but I'll take y'all's word for it that it works. Again, we'll see.

Because of these discussions, in my own mind I've ruled out taping (bah!), double-bevelling (bah!), I've ruled out Eschers and Thuringians and barber hones for finishing (for now I'm a Coticule-for-finishing man), I've ruled out under-1000-grit stones (too harsh) and over-8000 grit stones (won't improve the edge more than the Coticule will), and the only piece of equipment I might want to play with that I don't already own is a $50 commonly-available diamond hone. Maybe that's what I should ask Santa for. Done, problem solved as far as equipment goes.

I've also made, and documented making, a handful of dumbass errors that, if I'm lucky, will prevent some other dude (maybe even my son!) from ruining one of his razors or wasting time trying to hone in a way that I know won't work.

Pretty good progress for two days work, I think!

And to the fellow who PM'd me and told me he was looking forward to taking his barber hone to the one-and-only truly shave-ready razor he owns, I say this: don't do it. Consider honing a different, not-shave-ready razor first so you understand what exactly it is your shave-ready razor actually needs!!! If you dull your one good razor, and therefore have nothing to compare your edges to, you're up a creek.

I think it's a grave error suggesting the first hone a newbie should buy is a barber hone or other finishing/maintenance stone. How is anybody supposed to know how to maintain something if he doesn't know what he's maintaining or why!??!?

I am getting the distinct impression that I should have been practicing my honing all along instead of muddling along with razors that maybe weren't as sharp as they could have been. Maybe the first thing I should have done is bought two of the same shave-ready razors - one to practice shaving, dull the other with a bottle and use it to practice honing - and a 4K/8K hone to learn how to make "b" feel like "a" again as soon as possible. I bet I would have saved myself many crappy shaves with less-than-optimal equipment.

Lesson learned. I will teach Leo to hone at least as soon as I teach him to shave.

But before I do, I will try to discover if he approaches life from a grit-count-and-microscopes point of view, a romance-and-mystery point of view, or a balance of both, so I'll know what kind of hones to get him.

Never have I seen a thread that answers the question of "which hone should I buy" with "depends - do you prefer Math or Art?"

Stay tuned for more! This is fun!

You, sir, sound like a very wise father.

Originally Posted by olafurson

there are as many "recommended" honing methods as there are stones!!!

Well, It's you that opened Pandora's box. No use complaining now.

Originally Posted by olafurson

What's a noob to do?!

That's the purpose of this thread. I'm trying to distill all that random information down into a permanent, workable solution that works for me.

That's admirable, and so very recognizable for the naysayer with whom I share this brain. But I can tell you that's exactly how I approached honing during the first few months, and each week I had to swallow some of my pride (build upon years of honing woodworking tools), and follow more experienced guy's guidelines. In the end, razor honing is like learning a musical instrument. At first you copy what your tutor says you to copy. Only later you'll develop a personal style. Maybe I was not totally clear in my earlier post: you can better delete all my posts in this thread and follow one other guy's advice, than mixing it all up.

Originally Posted by olafurson

If I had a Chinese 12K, I'd stick with that. If I had an Escher or Shapton 12K or whatever, same thing. Even in my uneducated state, I can see no reason to have more than one polishing/finishing hone except just for fun.

I totally sympathize with that statement. They all work. It's just a matter of learning how to use them.

Originally Posted by olafurson

First, my argument against the coticule as bevel-setter. It's been suggested that a coticule can finish a razor at least as well as an 8K stone, yet set a bevel as well as a 1K stone just by slurrying the surface up. Don't you understand how that would mess someone up? Why couldn't someone just make a slurry on a Norton 8K and use it just like you're advocating use of the coticule with a slurry? What's the difference? Wouldn't that do the same thing? Has anyone ever tried?

You're trying to think in grit numbers again.
Glen says he can do it on a Norton 8K. Bevel setting that is. I have no Norton, but if Glen says so, I'm sure it can be done. Is is as fast as a Coticule? I have no idea.

Originally Posted by olafurson

I'm saying, for me, why not just use those precious little voodoo garnets in the coticule for the job they're world-renowned for - finishing - and use some el cheapo steel or ceramic or otherwise artificial jobby for the brute-force bevel-setting stuff?

Because Coticules did not became world-renowned for finishing. In the old days, razors were honed on a Coticule with slurry and mostly finished on paste. At least, that's the gear you'd find in a typical 70 year old shaving drawer in Europe. You can't even finish a Coticule-with-slurry honed edge on a Coticule with water just like that, because you'd get an unpleasant surprise: lack of keenness.
But with a proper procedure you can solve that problem. And that's why it's appealing. One charming natural hone. No soaking. No frequent lapping. No glazing. No overhoning. No harshness. No bevels with deep scratches or ragged edge. Great feedback. Not all that expensive, considering you won't need anything else.
Yes, most of those advantages can be found on other hones, but not all at once. The big disadvantage, or "challenge" as I like to call it? Getting the razor keen enough. Or put otherwise: Bridging the gap between setting a bevel on slurry, and finishing the job on water. Something that can only be tackled with practice, or with a layer of tape. Or by using other hones (but that of course defies the charm of using one hone only).

Originally Posted by olafurson

My coticule was expensive. A 1200 grit hone is cheap and industrial-strength unbreakable, I can get one in diamond-on-steel for, like, $50 from a hundred different websites. I'd rather preserve my rare, special, fancy coticule from the one mine in the whole world that makes them, for my lifetime AND my son's lifetime and HIS son's lifetime, rather than keep slurrying it away little by little. That just feels... wrong. I don't have some big stack of coticules to use, I've only got my one-and-only that I hope to never have to replace.

I have probably honed more razors on mine than you ever will in a decade, unless you start to hone razors for others. I hardly notice any wear. Unless I drop it, I don't think I'll hone through that stone in this lifetime.
But the choice is obviously yours to make, and I'm absolutely convinced that the edges you'll eventually get from your Norton can be just as nice as those from your Coticule. I'm only stating my honest opinion, because your applied logic leads to the wrong conclusions. And before we know it, they spread all over the forum.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Which currently leaves me with using my 4K Norton or 1K Norton for setting bevels. Or, I can use my Norton 220/1000 on my kitchen knives and replace it as needed, buy a new 1200 grit hone for bulk razor steel removal that will probably last my lifetime

I used a DMT-E for setting a bevel on the first 100 razors or so (many restores, so it has seen hard use). I can tell you it has become pretty lame by now. Those nice diamonds do get tired and there are no fresh ones exposed as the hone wears (like in most other hones).

Originally Posted by olafurson

For now, since I already own the Norton 1K, I plan to use it and the 4K/8K pyramid per gugi's recommendation during my next session..

Good plan & Good luck,
Bart.

Another suggestion from a honing newbie...

Put your hands on a decent (no chips) antique store blade. If you don't have one go looking. Its fun and you might find some nice surprises. I found myself a Dubl Duck Goldie and a Wade Butcher for just a few bucks. Anyway, get something you wouldn't mind messing up.

Now breadknife it. I used the side of an old knife hone I wouldn't use on a razor. Get it nice and dull.

Now you've got yourself a nice start for honing practice. I've been trying to hone up a slightly less than perfect blade for a long time and haven't really been able to tell if I was getting anywhere. It's been frustrating.

So frustrating that I finally decided to just take another older crappier razor that had a frown and a smile in it that I was shying away from and breadknife it and start from scratch.

I did this took it from 1k to 4k to 8k and bam I was shaving arm hair and had a blade that might not really be shave ready IMO but is definitely pretty razor sharp and shows me I'm doing something with my stones.

Now I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this to a nice razor but its worth it to go looking for something to mess up. It will also give you a decent idea of how you're doing. And a confidence boost to boot.

Anyway thats what I did I its really helped me out.

Just a thought.

Robert

Good day, Gentlemen!

I'm taking a day or two in between honing sessions (and shaves) to digest all the information in this thread and in my PM's. Here are my initial thoughts of the day, for anyone who cares.

First, I appreciate all the advice and encouragement. Clearly honing is a skill better taught in person, but I'll muddle through the best I can with videos and forum responses. Understand that, being the scientist I am, it's my nature to postulate, experiment, conclude, revise, and re-postulate.

I have no problem swallowing pride and admitting error, but I also prefer to make my big mistakes on paper if I can help it.

Since Bart brought up the analogy of hone-as-musical-instrument, let me tell you all a little story, that will be followed by a very important question. Once upon a time, I decided I wanted to join the school band. So my school did what I assume they thought was the best thing, and assembled all their available instruments for potential students to mess around with. I held the trumpet to my lips and blew - no sound. I couldn't make my mouth do what was necessary to make sound come out of the darn thing. Same with the trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet... but then came the saxophone. I picked it up, and immediately was able to make it play notes. So I chose that instrument, and stuck with it, and learned to play it skillfully. In previous years I had tried to learn how to play the piano and the guitar, and failed - couldn't master the skill no matter how hard I tried.

So here's the question. Is honing truly like I am describing playing a musical instrument - where each man will hone "best" on a particular style of hone?

What if the only instrument ever available to Louis Armstrong was an electric guitar? Would we know his name today?

Phrased differently, is it your opinion that ANY man can learn to hone on just a coticule, and use it as expertly as he could eventually learn to use any other hone? Or do some guys just "get" the coticule and some don't? Are there dudes that try and try and try the coticule and end up hating it, then pick up the Norton and love it immediately?

Put a third way... if, as Bart has said, "the edges you'll eventually get from your Norton can be just as nice as those from your Coticule", if I spend a year practicing the coticule, will I be able to hone as well as I could if I practiced a year on the Norton? Or do I need to try them all til I find a style that works best for me?

Originally Posted by Bart

Because Coticules did not became world-renowned for finishing. In the old days, razors were honed on a Coticule with slurry and mostly finished on paste. At least, that's the gear you'd find in a typical 70 year old shaving drawer in Europe. You can't even finish a Coticule-with-slurry honed edge on a Coticule with water just like that, because you'd get an unpleasant surprise: lack of keenness.

Why would finishing on paste work when finishing on coticule-with-water wouldn't? I would think once the bevel was set, you could finish on whatever you wanted. None of that makes sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's theoretically possible to go straight from a low grit hone to a high grit hone without a third hone in the middle, right? It'll take longer to grind down the harsh grooves of the low grit hone and get to a fine polish, but it'd still work.

Wouldn't it then still work to go from a slurried coticule to a water-only coticule, if you just accepted the fact that you'll need a buttload of passes on the water-only to wear down the slurry-created grooves??

I'm not saying that's how I want to do it, I'm just asking.

I thought I knew what I wanted to try next, but now I'm not so sure. I have two fine instruments in front of me and don't want to choose the wrong one. I tell you, the coticule looks awfully attractive in its little wooden box, compared to those big ugly Nortons... that have to soak and make a big mess...

Curse you guys and your excessive knowledge. And curse the internet for making every stinking choice in the world available to me all at once.

Fine. I'm going to try the Unicot method, ONCE, and document its success or failure. Maybe if I can convince myself the simple Unicot works, I'll be more willing to give the complicated Dilucot the study time it requires.

I'll try again, just for you Jimmy. And I'd better not annoy Bart too badly if he's the only dude who knows how to explain how to use this thing.

Bart, thank you for telling me not to get the DMT D8E. And to the fellow that I trust who PM'd me and told me to get the coticule in the first place, thank you for telling me that Naniwas and Shaptons take frequent lapping and "swarf up pretty bad". That just took my last non-Norton-non-Coticule pieces of equipment off the negotiating table.

I wonder if getting the BBW/Coti combo was a mistake. Maybe I should have gotten just the coticule, so I wouldn't have the BBW side available to muddy this situation up.

Originally Posted by olafurson

What if the only instrument ever available to Louis Armstrong was an electric guitar? Would we know his name today?

Did he ever try to master all the other instruments in existence? I don't know. Maybe he could have possibly been THE man to make the Hobo a truly popular music. Just like my famous countryman Toots Thielemans made the harmonica acceptable in serious Jazz. What if he played trumpet? Who's to tell. You can get so busy trying all different options in life, that you end up mastering nothing. In my humble opinion, this art called life has a lot to do with making choices and sticking by them.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Why would finishing on paste work when finishing on coticule-with-water wouldn't? I would think once the bevel was set, you could finish on whatever you wanted. None of that makes sense to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's theoretically possible to go straight from a low grit hone to a high grit hone without a third hone in the middle, right? It'll take longer to grind down the harsh grooves of the low grit hone and get to a fine polish, but it'd still work.

Wouldn't it then still work to go from a slurried coticule to a water-only coticule, if you just accepted the fact that you'll need a buttload of passes on the water-only to wear down the slurry-created grooves??

I'm not saying that's how I want to do it, I'm just asking.

Most hones, in casu synthetic water hones and diamond hones, refine the edge by replacing coarse scratches with finer scratches. Coticules don't quite work that way. Their large garnets cut deep when they are free to spin in a slurry, between the steel and the surface of the hone. On water, those same garnets are only partially exposed, and can't spin. In a manner of speaking, the edge rides on a bed of microscopical multi-facetted marbles. The garnets now cut extremely shallow and exert more of a polishing effect. Here's a picture of a Unicot edge. The lower part carries the typical "sandblasted" pattern of slurry. The secondary bevel is polished on water.

We use slurry, because the hone is too slow to work with water for any significant steel removal. But slurry has a downside. The very edge bounces with the garnets as well, which is slightly detrimental to it. Basically we are at the same time removing steel from the bevel sides (which has a sharpening effect) and rounding the very edge (a dulling effect). The finer the edge, the less it can withstand the impact with the garnets. At a certain point, the edge will loose as much keenness as it gains from steel removal off the bevel. That limit is determined by the density of the slurry (and by the natural differences between Coticules).
On most Coticules, the edge is not yet sharp enough for finishing at that point. There are a number of options to augment the keenness. Diluting the slurry (too lessen the dulling effect) is one. A secondary bevel is another. Putting it on a high grit synthetic hone works too. And even your BBW with light slurry does the trick, because the garnets in the BBW display far less "slurry dulling", unfortunatly it cuts also much slower.

Bottom line. A set bevel off a Coticule is not yet sharp enough for final finishing it. There has been a lot of debate about this, but I believe this is the same with an edge coming form a synthetic 1K hone, but that edge does carry a sawtooth pattern, which aids its cutting performance, but does not provide a smooth shave for the skin. With a Coticule you are gaining sharpness till the very end, relying on the HHT during the final stages demonstrates that on each razor I hone.

Originally Posted by olafurson

Fine. I'm going to try the Unicot method, ONCE, and document its success or failure. Maybe if I can convince myself the simple Unicot works, I'll be more willing to give the complicated Dilucot the study time it requires.

I'll try again, just for you Jimmy. And I'd better not annoy Bart too badly if he's the only dude who knows how to explain how to use this thing.

Why all the skepticism? There's a growing group of people making use of a Coticule to its full extent, and several of them are more than capable to compare with other methods. Furthermore the procedures I have gathered to use that hone are fully disclosed and explained, here on SRP in countless threads and on my website. And yet you almost sound as if you would be highly surprised that any of it works.

Respectfully,
Bart.

I don't know if Louis Armstrong would have been a great guitar player. I don't know if you would have been better off getting just a yellow coticule rather than a combo stone. I don't know how much a particular stone contributes to one's eventual overall honing skills. I don't know what is "theoretically possible" in a honing progression.

But I do know how to take a dull blade and make it sharp.

As a psychiatrist, I have noted how many very intelligent people get victimized by their own brains. Because it is such a strong tool for them, they depend on it too much. They overthink things. They reason and conjecture and run "thought experiments" in their heads, which is all well and good -- up to a point. That point is reached, I think, when it interferes with decisive, effective action; when thinking takes the place of doing.

Watch a child at play. They enter games with their full selves -- body, spirit, will, imagination. They do not think: "Should I jump?" They just jump. And this play is the basis of all future successful activities. They discover their limits, their abilities, their purpose. And it is done not in the abstract, not in theory, but in the present, and with joy.

I think that is the best orientation to adopt when learning to hone.