Take heed to the above quote Ian and you may learn a thing or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by treydampier
Take heed to the above quote Ian and you may learn a thing or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by treydampier
Another good quote from the old Kenny Rogers song," You gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em." Unless of course you have to have the last word .... that is another issue. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Jimmy,
I know I have been quiet on here for several months now and have read a bunch. I have enjoyed sharpening knives for 30+ years and still aren't that great at it. I can make a WONDERFULLY sharp block plane blade that slices through my bamboo when making fly rods..... However, I still am lost when it comes to sharpening a shaving instrument. I have many of the tools needed and I am enjoying the process. (A key my wife says) :soapbox:
Okay.... I am done.......
Barry
Wow, I shave and eat and a page and a half of replies. I'm going to get started at the top and edit forward...
gssix #1: You need to clarify what you're refering to. If it's my angle calculations, then I'd love to see your theory that disproves trigonometry. And what do you mean that it works? I never said it didn't work, I said it is damage to the razor. The razor still works just fine. However at some point after repeated honings the angle will reach a point where it is incapable of providing a comfortable shave. It could be argued that even the most minor increase in angle depth decreases the quality of the shave by reducing sharpness. Final sharpness with a cutting edge is directly related to edge angle. You may not perceive the difference, but I don't care how many razors a person shaves, it's simply impossible for them to know what is perceptible to another. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.
Onimura, yes that is another way to get a similar edge.
SirShaves "You honestly assume sharpening a kitchen knife's edge is comparable to getting a smooth shaving razor's edge?":
I actually made this distinction clearly in my last post. Please read it.
I'm familiar with relative compression of electrical tape from using it for its intended purpose. An easy test is simply running a thumbnail into it. I'm really surprised there's resistance to this concept. Do you actually believe that electrical tape doesn't compress when its edge is pressed down upon? Watch an electrician wrap a wire sometime. The stretch you notice is related to the same properties that allow it to easily compress.
Sparq, Indeed they aren't interchangable. However the ability to recognize the state and source of problems with bevels is. uneven pressure, incorrect angle, etc, etc raises the same problems in any edge, regardless how highly it is polished later.
Maina, you don't need to measure behind the bevel. Assuming you don't raise the spine or drive the edge when honing you can use the width of the spine just as well (Or the width of the spine + tape if taped). It's simply an arctan calculation, and will be much more accurate as the measurements are on a much higher scale.
That said, I'd wager than most faces will notice a 1* difference in a shave, and the deeper angle won't be the prefered one for the majority. So you are degrading you razor even though it will take years for it to become unusable for you, and even then you can do as someone suggested earlier and undo the effects of taping. It's the time in between when the razor holds a deeper angle that I find the real problem with taping to lie in. And if you simply correct the angle when it gets beyond acceptable to you, I fail to see why you're taping in the first place. You want the razor to be pretty for you until the shave gets bad enough your concern for it supercedes your concern for the razors aestetics?
Gsix2# I'm not telling anyone how to hone. I'm mentioning the damage caused to the blade by a poor honer, compounded by his use of tape on a razor that he then sold, which suggests to me that it's a bad idea to recommend the use of tape to new honers. What started the whole knife debate was that it was suggested that I couldn't recognize the source of obvious flaws in the bevel caused by uneven honing, which follows the exact same pattern with razors as with knives.
Hibud That is a viable explaination, but I feel far less likely due to the particular grind pattern. It was evenly ground slightly above center, then a brief extremely sharp slope, then it sloped out widely to a briefly level point on either side, finally ending with a slight smile at the most extreme corners (Which I suspect was the original grind) An unleveled stone I believe would present with a high point or section, followed by a short slope out, usually to bent/folded toe and heel. I can't say with absolute certainty that wasn't the cause here, but given my time spent on the razor and many bevel inspections under magnification before and during honing (to see if I had beveled the full length) I'm fairly sure of my history. It's difficult to present every indication I used in making my determination. As I said I spent quite a lot of time working on it in very small chunks and inspecting and noting every phase of repair. I could draw a very high resolution relief map of the bevel as it arrived at this point. I am that intimately familiar with it. I didn't make this post lightly. Your suggestion is food for thought, though.
JimmyHad, that post seems to suggest a good argument against tape. With tape you wouldn't SEE those large scratch marks... and similarly to what happened to me here, you wouldn't have that key indication that the bevel needed to be reset. The tape doesn't seem to be solving the problem the new honer has. He's still going to be doing damage by honing wrongly on all those stones, it just won't be apparent until you try to hone it without resetting the bevel. (In fact I'm starting to think that was exactly the case here). Am I misreading what you were saying? I'm not sure how tape is supposed to protect against bad honing other than restricting damage to the edge... which is more harmful than helpful in my opinion. I'd rather have scuffs and uneven wear across the blade than a great deal more of that same stuff restricted to the edge... especially since the blade and spine can take a lot more abuse than the edge. Grind hard on a 600 stone on the spine for a few minutes and yeah, you take a few years off the razor's lifespan. Do it on an edge and enjoy your new razor tomorrow.
Ryan, I would offer that I'd much prefer that wear on my razors spine than edge. I think the issue here is that these honesters are dealing with the spine wear, so it bothers them. Whereas put the same treatment that caused the spine wear on a taped razor and these same honesters would take one look at the result and either not purchase it or send it back to the customer telling them sorry but it's not worth salvaging. You may as well argue that it's better for new drivers to drive 100 mph over 35mph because all the cars you repair that were in 35mph crashes took a lot of work to fix.
Old. I own 20 razors. Every one is in perfect shaving condition. 18 of them got there by my resetting the bevel and working them up to it. I've nicked myself twice shaving. One time was on a scar I have beside my adams apple. The other was my first time shaving my mustache atg. I've had smooth shaves. Nearly every shave before this one and every shave since this one in fact. This shave wasn't actually bad enough for me to go and get another razor, but it was obviously bad enough to tell that my honing had been ineffective. And when I investigated, the fact that the razor had been taped and the angle brought in was the culprit. And as I said before I went through probably close to 50 breaks and checks of the razor during the bevel reset and got very accurate slices of where the bevel was wearing, how, and at what rate. I think the problem is you just don't understand how exacting I am with my razors. I believe that if you can't understand something completely, what is the point. There is not a device I own that I can't take apart and completely reassemble. Most of them have had it done. I didn't just nick myself shaving, throw down my razor and with a spiteful glance declare that it's previous owner should be damned to hell for his inproper honing.
Oh and Hibud from page 2. I didn't mean that I sharpened, shaved and a day later it was dull. I meant that I sharpened, waited a day (as I didn't need to shave that night), shaved and it was dull for the shave. (Duller than it should have been).
Oh, and just to generally respond to everyone who suggested I ask the seller if the razor had been taped. I would have if I thought there was any doubt. The edge had literally zero hone wear (you can look at pics in my album, the Fil side pic appears to show slight wear near the toe, but trust me it's just a trick of light, I was amazed that they were so mint upon arrival and checked many times to confirm out of excitement, the minor scuffs concentrated around the heel are from my 4k and the broadness at the heel is just how it was ground), and the bevel was way off of where it should have been. I was polishing the blade without touching the bevel for a mm or more above the bevel when I was working it with my king. So unless Filarmonica ground their bevels at an angle substantially beyond where they should be and then polished them, I honestly see no way this razor could have gotten to that point without the use of tape (or some really crazy and outlandishly steady-handed person actually sharpening it as if it were a knife).
Take the tape off and the bevel only needs to be taken about 0.000273" deeper (at the non-edge side of the bevel) to reset. That's only 273 millionths of an inch, assuming a bevel height of 1/32 of an inch and a reduction of 1/2 degree per side. All of my full-hollows have bevel heights less than that. Meaning less removal than 273u". It usually takes me less than 1 minute to set a bevel that was already done with tape; using a 1200 hone. I think it's a non-issue. If you want to use tape to protect a fancy spine or save some steel during a rework, ok. If not, that's ok too. Either way, the razor will probably last long enough to give to your Great-Grandson. Using or not using tape will not damage a shaving edge that is properly honed. Tape does give the honing stroke a very different feel, but that is easily compensated for. The tape will be thinned by abrasion, much more than compression; especially on the coarser hones. Anyone who has set many "heavy-work" bevels using tape is familiar with removing their tape in 3 long strips...
Knife vs. razor sharpening? I think the concepts are identical. i.e. make bevel, polish bevel till sharpness impresses you, done. The techniques and the feel needed to be successful at each are subtlely different. The razor will require more "even" strokes and, for most knife sharpeners, a much lighter touch on the final laps. The "even" stroke is more a matter of feel that will be recognized once you get it right several hundred times. Like holding a freehand angle with a knife, it requires some practice; no amount of verbal or written instruction will get you there. But it might help. I think that learning razor, knife, or woodworking tool sharpening will have some crossover to the others; both skill and equipment-wise. JMO.
Somebody once said that "sharpening a razor is like sharpening a knife with training wheels". On the angle, sure. On the rest of it, well... not exactly... Each has it's own different skill-mix to master. That's what makes 'em all so much fun.
Knifes feedback a lot more, but they also require more feedback (outside of the fancy razor moves, rolling, etc) as you have to correct angles, etc. Of course the feedback may be more due to my knive use to be concentrated on naturals and my razors to thus far only be done on synthetics (I'm told naturals tend to feedback a lot better). And I'm beginning to get the feel for razor feedback and even rely on it to tell me if the edge is ready (as I'm unsatisfied with pretty much all the edge tests I know of), so I can appreciate the skill involved in that as well. But in my experience, making a bevel forgoes most of that. I really see no way in which beveling a razor requires experience or comprehension not available from beveling almost any other blade so long as you understand the design of the razor and know the most basic motions. I fully admit glen and most of this site are vastly better at sharpening razors than I am. I just feel that 99.9% of that skill is required after bevel setting. I'm almost certain that most if not all of the failed attempts at beveling a razor are due to gross mistakes such as leaning on the razor or not using a flat stone, or simply due to impatience. I don't think that at the bevel end of honing (a razor) skill really comes into play much. I move it back and forth in a slight X honing motion until it's sharp. Again, this all assumes the razor does not require any special care (Smiling, frowning, warped, etc, etc). If you ask me to bevel one of those babies vs Glen... Well you're gonna be a lot happier with his results. I'd throw the warped one out and grind the hell out of the other two until they were straight edged. I have no interest in learning the skills for dealing with those razors (I have minor skill with smiling, but I'm still not happy with the results I get on those blades) yet. I'm aiming at improving my skill at the polishing stage and once I'm satisfied I can do a straight edge to the best of my ability I'll worry about the smilers.
As for the light touch, absolutely. However I hone quite slowly, and if you aren't trying to go fast a light touch is not difficult. That may be why it seems I'm talking down to people when I say it's easy. I don't mean to... it just really is easy when you go as slowly as I do. I've seen some of these guys honing. They do it faster than I strop. That takes skill, but I don't fancy beginners will be doing that.
Where are you getting the 273millionths number from sticky? It's not the width of the tape that is changing the angle of the edge, it's the fact that the edge is moving towards the spine but the spine is not narrowing. The angle of the edge is designed to stay the same by those two both happening at the same rate. I'm not sure but I think you're just listing the difference of the angle given by tape vs no tape assuming the edge never receded due to honing.
And yes, absolutely if you want to preserve the razors looks, I understand taping. I would definitely tape if I had some script or image on the blade I was worried about taking off through grinding. (Of course I'd probably not shave with that razor if it's looks were that important to me because eventually there's no getting around taking metal off it as the edge will sooner or later encroach). But I'd do so knowing the effects on the edge, and I'd take extra care to ensure my pressure was minimal and even. I see that as a totally different conversation than whether or not new/poor honers should tape.
would you please stop? Years of experience honing thousands of razors trumps your rationale... I have a razor that has a 25 degree angle and I have razors that have 15 degree angle that shave as well as each other. The tape has zero to do with what you were noticing on that razor. Please, just stop...
Damn this is one hell of a ****ing match :deadhorse:
You have a razor with a 25 degree angle? I'd honestly like to see that. Is it a very old wedge of some sort?
There is a direct correlation between angle of the blade and cutting ability, so I'm sorry but your experience only proves that with two different blades, at two different angles, you can't find a difference in shave quality. Forgive me for saying it, but arguing that something which undeniably reduces the blades ability to cut can not degrade the quality of the shave seems very pertinacious to me. And I would proffer that there really is no way to tell regardless of how much experience you have, as the change takes time, and I doubt anyone can with a straight face compare particular shaves many years apart. So I'm going to claim that this much is necessarily trusted to theory. And simple knowledge of cutting properties should be enough to convince anyone that a change in blade angle will at the very least change the shave. I personally feel that under almost all circumstances, reducing the prospective sharpness is a step down in shave quality. Others are free the feel the opposite, or feel that the respective traits that are changed are not noticeable to them or else balance each other out.
I suppose it could be tested with some degree of reliability by purchasing 2 identical razors. Something cheap. Gold Dollar would work.
Find two similar specimens (after honing) compare their shave to ensure there is no noticeable distinction. Then deliberately grind the edge of one down several mm. Do the same to the other but leave the spine intact through taping. Then do a single shave, comparing the two. It's not perfect as there may be distinctions that are noticeable further down the blade, but it's as close as we'll get. I'm quite confident the difference, when immediate, will be noticeable.
The tape width is precisely what is changing the angle on the shaving edge. From the very first honing. For simple touch-up, the edge doesn't get closer to the spine very fast at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS
The only way the angle would remain the same is if the spine and edge had equal "bevel wear" plane heights and lengths. Meaning surface area. I don't think I have a single razor that does. The cross-section of the edge and side of the spine are different, by design.
The 273u" is simple trig. Hone a razor bevel with tape. Remove the tape. You now will only need to remove a depth of steel by 273u" from the non-edge side of the previous bevel (it isn't necessary to remove anything from the spine at the same time). Your new bevel will then be continuous from the spine to the cutting edge. This might also make your bevel height a little bigger if you are using a near-wedge. On a full hollow you'll need magnification and something like an optical comparator to accurately measure the difference.
Attachment 34334
Visualize side a as being your no-tape bevel and side h as the taped bevel originally in place. Assume bevel height h of 0.03125" and angle B = 0.5 degrees.
Yes, this is the angle of the bevel changing from "tape" to "no-tape" state. My point is that 273u" is very fast to remove, and tape doesn't screw up your honing in the slightest. Normal honing touch up will change the distance from edge to spine in the range of less than 0.0001". Probably less than that. The diagram simply illustrates that changing from one state to another makes no significant difference in the vast majority of cases.
