Thread: Help with fine tuning.....

Personally I pay no particular attention to the scratches. I set the bevel until it passes the TNT and do 10 x strokes for good measure. Then I do the 4 /8 pyramid as explained in the honing section of the SRP Wiki. I do look a the edge under the 30 x before I set the bevel to see if there are any chips or whatever. I also look at it after bevel setting and probably after the honing is completed on the 8k. I might use a TPT but lately I'll just strop and shave. More often than not that is enough. If it is not I go back to the hones and work at it some more. Probably with a conservative pyramid.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IME an 8k shave is smooth, close, comfortable. I get bbs with an 8k shave if I have done my part. Speaking of my skin and whiskers. Give it a try and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.

This is very good advise. I usually shave off the 8K all the time after I hone, I hardly feel the need to move higher up. Sometimes I want to spoil myself though and I go to my Naniwa 12k after the 8k, but it's really not needed for an awesome shave.

Originally Posted by bjanzen

I understand that..... Just trying to understand the puzzle. I know there is a lot of trial and error but asking questions saves a lot of trial and error sometimes.

What is my finishing stone? Is it up to the task? Would a JNat be better? Should I get some .5 Diamond paste instead of the 1 or 1/4?

When my blades come off the 8K Shapton, they are sharp and shave ready-some can get comfortable shaves in that manner. I can't. I generally progress to a finer hone. Your finish stone should be up to the task.ATG can be challenging-depending on your beard.

I shy away from diamond paste for most razors, but will on occasion use a .5 micron paste on a balsa paddle. I have found .25 dp to create a very harsh edge.

I have long since used a microscope in my honing. Being able to observe the edge at 30X or 40X can really give you an idea what the hone is doing to the bevel that you had originally established.

Unfortunately, alot of trial and error is part of the process of truly learning the art. I have found some razors will exhibit microchipping on the finer hones-the microscope can be a big help determining at what stage you are creating a fragile edge.

My initial response was not meant to frustrate you. Once you have the bevel established the blade MUST be SHARP-further honing will smooth the edge.For me to go ATG, I need a sharp and SMOOTH edge. You really shouldn't need paste at all.You seem to be on the right track. Good Luck.

Originally Posted by bjanzen

I have been trying to leave the deep 1K and 4K scratches to have "teeth".... With trying to shave off the 8K, would I do more polishing? Am I trying to get sharp and comfortable.... Different than I would if going on to the 12K and paste?

Thanks again,

Barry

Barry,

Remove every last low grit scratch. Your missing some key ideas, but I can't put my finger on what they are just from your initial post. I can sense that they are there in your mind though.

A sharp razors edge is a delicate object. More polishing, with either no pressure or negative pressure is called for. Stropping is the same. With stropping you need a repeated light touch to gently "burnish" the edge. I do not use the burnish word literally, just figuratively.

Generally, for an instructional idea only I would say that most "manly men" would have a hard time developing a good edge because its such a delicate proposition. When you are honing think of polishing the edge to a mirror like finish, using no pressure, then stropping the edge in a light, practically dainty stroke on the strop. Ever see Marlon Brando stropping in "The Last Tango in Paris" ??. He lets the strop sag, don't do that, but you can tell he is almost afraid of the amount of polishing that big bad strop could do. He knows that over time the strop will do some pretty intense things.

If you own a Mach 3 razor, go look at it carefully in reflected light. The steel has a unique polish to it. It is similar to the polish you would achieve with any steel if it were polished to a mirror finish and then rubbed on something. That is the same effect your looking to achieve.

You'll probably discount my post as silliness now, but consider some of the cognitive ideas about honing and stropping that I am trying to communicate. Its a gentle, patient pastime. Honing is a practical skill that requires concentration and precision, much like flytying I suppose. I'm pretty certain that stropping and fly casting are very similar too. Ever see someone who thought they could force a cast? It doesn't work very well.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Personally I pay no particular attention to the scratches. I set the bevel until it passes the TNT and do 10 x strokes for good measure. Then I do the 4 /8 pyramid ...... after the honing is completed on the 8k. I might use a TPT but lately I'll just strop and shave. More often than not that is enough. ............

Jimmy,
I was trying to leave scratches for strength. I have had my first scary edge hold up about 5 shaves and then start pulling. Thanks for that description of your process. I haven't had luck with the pyramid.... Now I know why. It needs more steps that I was skipping. Will have to try that again.

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

.......... Your finish stone should be up to the task.ATG can be challenging-depending on your beard.......... I have found .25 dp to create a very harsh edge.............For me to go ATG, I need a sharp and SMOOTH edge. You really shouldn't need paste at all.You seem to be on the right track. Good Luck.

Guess I should lay off the 1/4 micron paste. Was trying to create an edge that will easily cut ATG. My current blades are close but not comfortable. Have had more irritation this week then in the recent past.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Remove every last low grit scratch. Your missing some key ideas, but I can't put my finger on what they are just from your initial post. I can sense that they are there in your mind though

.......... More polishing, with either no pressure or negative pressure is called for.

.......... When you are honing think of polishing the edge to a mirror like finish, using no pressure, then stropping the edge in a light, practically dainty stroke on the strop.

........You'll probably discount my post as silliness now, but consider some of the cognitive ideas about honing and stropping that I am trying to communicate. Its a gentle, patient pastime. Honing is a practical skill that requires concentration and precision, much like flytying I suppose. I'm pretty certain that stropping and fly casting are very similar too. Ever see someone who thought they could force a cast? It doesn't work very well.

Alan,

Thanks for the response here. I actually have almost PMed you several times. Your advice here>>>http://straightrazorpalace.com/honing/5164-my-honing.html is what got my head going. Now your advice here has me confused. I get my block plane blades to a mirror finish with diamond paste and that makes the best cutting edge. We want the finest and straightest edge possible for those fine shavings of bamboo. I know the concepts are in my head from my other hobbies but I haven't got all this figured out here. I sat down earlier and started a blade that I just couldn't get to shave. Now it is popping arm hair after the 4k stone It is coming fairly easy for me... Just don't have it all together.

When flyfishing, I don't force my cast. Actually it won't work at all with the bamboo that I enjoy fishing. I have the light touch down. Actually I have had to add pressure back to my process. I was trying to be TOO light on the higher grit stones and the balsa hones and now it is working better for me.

My biggest problem at the moment is keeping the edge from see-sawing from heel to toe as I bring it down the hone. Maybe this will help me.... Where is the concentration of contact at? Seems like it would be better to have it along the heel edge of the stone. Otherwise the heel is off the stone before it gets much honing when using the X stroke.

Actually that brings me to another question> Why the X stroke? Seems like the toe gets all the honing and the heel very little. At least that has been my experience. Today I have had to focus on getting the heel to contact more at the start of the stroke and keeping pressure concentrated near the heel edge of the hone. Does that make sense? Seems like a rolling stroke straight down the hone would be better. BUT.....Since Lynn said do the X...... I believe it and that settles it!!!!!

Thank again...... Keep it coming,

Barry

Originally Posted by bjanzen

Actually that brings me to another question> Why the X stroke? Seems like the toe gets all the honing and the heel very little. At least that has been my experience. Today I have had to focus on getting the heel to contact more at the start of the stroke and keeping pressure concentrated near the heel edge of the hone. Does that make sense? Seems like a rolling stroke straight down the hone would be better. BUT.....Since Lynn said do the X...... I believe it and that settles it!!!!!

Thank again...... Keep it coming,

Barry

I will answer only this question. why is x pattern ? It does work that is why.Don't worry about which part touches more then other's.
(this is simple way to answer and if i am not mistaken this is Lynn's word not mine.)
My question to you is this
Have you ever had any of your razor's honed by honemeister's?
If not then you better get it done. This will help you to know how sharp your blade should get. (i have sense you are overhoning with stones or pastes i have no idea. Why i said this your blade shouldn't pull after 5 shaves)
GL

[QUOTE=hi_bud_gl;502180..........Have you ever had any of your razor's honed by honemeister's?[/QUOTE]

GL,

My first razor came from you actually. It was a M.Jung #80 spike point with white scales. It shaved well as I can remember but I have since re-honed it and it works very well. It has been my go-to razor when nothing else was working. Now I have three others that work equally well but not just right. Now I have shaved with a "Lynn honed" razor and mine are close on sharpness...... Just not as comfortable and durable as I would like. I think I am getting the basics down.... Just learing the fine art here......

You have seen "shave ready " razor's . Don't try to get sharpest blade out there. Try to get comfortable shave.(Example you get 1 razor from particular person .it is sharp and you love it. Now you are trying to make your another razor as sharp as this one? Don't try this will make you more confuse. why i am saying this because people do make a lot mistake to get 2 different razor's in same sharpness level.)
To get comfortable shave you would need to have not just sharpest blade but prepare your face for it.In the other hand have you tried scything motion shaving?
I am Person against the pastes (although i know it does give very nice sharp edge).if i am not mistake you do have 12k chinese. This should do the job.just you will need more strokes on the hone.

Hi Barry,

Sorry didn't mean to confuse you. I will have a chance to check out that thread and try and fix the confusion tonight.

I won't even discuss the x pattern and luckily Sham has taken that one on. Four or five years ago I would have taken the time to explain that one, but I'm done with the persuasive writing. As Sham has said "it works". Also, be a little willing to think outside the box. Just because we say an "X pattern" doesn't mean it has to replicate an X exactly. It can be more vertical or more elogated. I would almost say that my x pattern is more like pulling the razor downward and flipping then running the blade lengthwise down the hone.

Now to solve your problem, and without getting too advanced, I'm going to just be truthful with you. The concentration of contact isn't on the hone at all. It is under the scales and created by the pinky. Hold the shank between index finger and thumb, place your pinky under the razors scales and lift slightly. Now the razor can not lift off the hone and remains flat while moving down the hone. If there is any point of contact pressure on the blade it'll get screwed up.

I'll reply again tonight, late. You can PM me anytime you want. We can talk on the phone or whatever. Feel free to call me on any posts that confuse you. Lets agree that we won't dig up any posts from say, over 5 years ago though, because my views on honing changed a little with practice.

Ahhh . . . I just checked out that thread. It is from a little while back ('06). Can you send me a PM and tell me where I confused you? There is a big difference sometimes in generic threads that I started and when I reply to an individual. They often have differing purposes. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Alan

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Hi Barry,

...........I won't even discuss the x pattern and luckily Sham has taken that one on. Four or five years ago I would have taken the time to explain that one, but I'm done with the persuasive writing

................ Lets agree that we won't dig up any posts from say, over 5 years ago though, because my views on honing changed a little with practice.

Alan,

Thanks for the reply. I understand the X pattern works..... Just have had problems with the heel coming off the stone before it gets enough honing and the toe gets sharp first.

I am sure patriarchs like yourself get tired of telling newbies things that have been repeated over and over. I REALLY have tried to search the archives as much as possible before jumping in here. I have seen the shift and progression in technology and tools. Just trying to filter out the theory to make it work for me.

My confusion is this>> Trying to understand the place for scratches as it relates to durability and cutting teeth versus polish versus sharpness and aggressive edge. I know there is all kinds of principles involved.

At the moment Sham (hi_bud_gl_) has been helping me over the phone. He has been a wonderful help. I understand words are much easier than tying so I will shoot you a PM with my number and you can call if you like.....

Thanks a million,

Barry