Thread: Avoiding a frown

What is breadknifing? I've never heard of it.

Originally Posted by bulldog

What is breadknifing? I've never heard of it.

From the wiki

The bread knife method:
Take the razor, place it on the lowest grit stone you have, edge straight down on the stone, and try to cut the stone like you would a loaf of bread (I hold the blade itself, dead center) this totally dulls the edge and squares it up taking out nicks, chips, frowns and sometimes heel and toe wear..
What you end up with is a nice flat straight edge that is absolutely dull…
If the razor has a chip in the edge either at the toe end or the heel end of the blade and is too large to repair using light strokes with the above method, then you may want to breadknife into the side or unused part of the hone so that the hone's usefulness is not impaired. Breadknifing can also be performed on sandpaper.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I have to Agree with you about tape is better?
This is why tape is better.
when you have frowns problem is not at the edge of the blade. Problem is in the back of the blade.
Most people sees edge is not even and thinks that is it . This is the problem and i have to fix.
Lets say you do fix by breadknifing and edge is straight. Now you go back to hone as your straight back hasn't been fixed you will have again same problem all over.
Now lets say you do use tape the fix problem.
You tape most honed location of the back and hone the blade. Rest- less honed back of the blades gets honed and you do fix the back problem. while doing this you are automatically fix the edge. Edge evens up.
you take tape of and hone without tape or just use new tape but cover whole back . You will have your problem fixed. hope this helps.

One could also hone without tape in order to correct the edge and the spine. When I'm removing frowns, I keep the whole razor and spine on the hone while doing circles on my 1k. So far, this has worked for me. There may be better/faster methods, but I'm sticking with this for now. Then again, I would think you could breadknife and then flat hone till the edge is all back into shape, though it sounds like that would take a long time.

With regards to the OP, if you are putting in the frown and unable to get the center sharp - did the razor have a frown and/or uneven wear to start? If so, the issue may be something already done to the razor as opposed to your honing technique. If there was even wear, it could be your technique or your hones. Have you lapped recently? If your hones are flat, it could be one of many things with your technique.

All in all, something sounds suspicious to me - if you are putting a frown into what was an even blade/spine, that means you're removing more metal from the center than the toe and heal. Normally, that would mean that the center is honed (or overhoned) and the toe and heal are not...

There is a razor with a frown in an eBay lot I got for learning to hone. Would you suggest I wait until I can hone really well before tackling the frown, or should I have at it for the experience? The frowned razor is likely to be a sacrificial lamb to the altar of honing knowledge, so I am tempted to tape the mid-spine and hone away.

So far, I can recondition an old blade without warping or frowns to a good shaver.

The frowned razor has a single shoulder which extends to below the frown, of course. Is there anything special I should do to tackle the shoulder?

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

With regards to the OP, if you are putting in the frown and unable to get the center sharp - did the razor have a frown and/or uneven wear to start? If so, the issue may be something already done to the razor as opposed to your honing technique. If there was even wear, it could be your technique or your hones. Have you lapped recently? If your hones are flat, it could be one of many things with your technique.

All in all, something sounds suspicious to me - if you are putting a frown into what was an even blade/spine, that means you're removing more metal from the center than the toe and heal. Normally, that would mean that the center is honed (or overhoned) and the toe and heal are not...

Hi,
I am a bit perplexed by this problem... I use a coticule, lapped nice and flat. The razor in question is a new Livi regrind, about a 1/2 hollow. I also have a full hollow razor, and a 1/4 hollow razor. I have no trouble with the full or 1/4 hollows-- just this particular Livi.

I've had the razor 3 months, decided to touch it up with just water on the coticule. Noticed there was a section about half inch below the toe would not shave arm hair...

So then I backed up to a light slurry, same problem. Then backed up to a full slurry and tried a bevel reset-- the bottom half of the razor, and the toe would respond, but the same spot just below the toe just would not shave armhair.

Then I started messing around with different pressures, and that's when I noticed I started putting in a frown...

Hoping Lynn can figure it out...

-Chief

Originally Posted by boshave

There is a razor with a frown in an eBay lot I got for learning to hone. Would you suggest I wait until I can hone really well before tackling the frown, or should I have at it for the experience? The frowned razor is likely to be a sacrificial lamb to the altar of honing knowledge, so I am tempted to tape the mid-spine and hone away.

So far, I can recondition an old blade without warping or frowns to a good shaver.

The frowned razor has a single shoulder which extends to below the frown, of course. Is there anything special I should do to tackle the shoulder?

I would say wait till you can hone before you try to hone a frowning blade. Fixing frowning blades is not always easy, given uneven wear on the edge and the spine, and those two might not match each other. But, if you can hone up an ebay special that is just dull, maybe it's time to step up to the plate and give it a shot.

If the shoulder extends below the edge, there are two options that I can think of. One is to grind down the shoulder to even things out (a DMT would do the trick). The other is to hone the blade but not the shoulder. I would advise option 1, as option 2 can make the honing process as well as shaving more difficult.

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Hi,
I am a bit perplexed by this problem... I use a coticule, lapped nice and flat. The razor in question is a new Livi regrind, about a 1/2 hollow. I also have a full hollow razor, and a 1/4 hollow razor. I have no trouble with the full or 1/4 hollows-- just this particular Livi.

I've had the razor 3 months, decided to touch it up with just water on the coticule. Noticed there was a section about half inch below the toe would not shave arm hair...

So then I backed up to a light slurry, same problem. Then backed up to a full slurry and tried a bevel reset-- the bottom half of the razor, and the toe would respond, but the same spot just below the toe just would not shave armhair.

Then I started messing around with different pressures, and that's when I noticed I started putting in a frown...

Hoping Lynn can figure it out...

-Chief

Sounds like it was the playing with pressure that caused the problem. Granted, it could be many things, as I have not seen the blade and did not see you honing it, but I would say the problem is more likely from your honing than Livi's grinding - based purely on Livi's reputation. I'm sure Lynn will get things sorted for you.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Sounds like it was the playing with pressure that caused the problem. Granted, it could be many things, as I have not seen the blade and did not see you honing it, but I would say the problem is more likely from your honing than Livi's grinding - based purely on Livi's reputation. I'm sure Lynn will get things sorted for you.

Hi,
Don't get me wrong-- I'm convinced I caused the frown when I started with the uneven pressure...

I just can't figure out why I could not get that particular part of the edge to respond, esp. when I don't have that issue when honing my other razors (even ones with less grind to them).

Once I get the razor back, I'll give it another go after a few months.

-Chief

The tape idea is interesting. I usually use something more like Holli4pirating when I want to get the spine even- marker on the spine while its ground on hones. But that sounds like a handy trick for putting in a smile. For some reason I didn't think of frowns being caused by honewear, I always thought of them being caused by pasted strops, though I guess pasted strops might wear out the spine, also. That might actually explain a few problems I had in the past on ebay beaters.

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Hi,
Don't get me wrong-- I'm convinced I caused the frown when I started with the uneven pressure...

I just can't figure out why I could not get that particular part of the edge to respond, esp. when I don't have that issue when honing my other razors (even ones with less grind to them).

Once I get the razor back, I'll give it another go after a few months.

-Chief

Were you taping the spine? If so the frown shouldn't be caused by an uneven spine/honewear on an brand new Livi. I'd try a marker test on the blade and see what stroke I needed to use to hit the area thats not getting honed.