Thread: Japanese waterstones info...

Just came across a good post over on bladeforums.com regarding
Japanese waterstones. Here is the text of it:
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There are a ton of them I haven't tried but here's my 2 cents based on the stuff I have tried and things that others have said.

There are several types of water stones. Clay bonded are sort of like a flower pot with aluminum oxide mixed in (often red and smell like a flower pot too). Then there are the magnesia stones, these are made by mixing the abrasive with a sort of plaster-like cement... Suehiro white stones are of this type. Then there are your resin bonded stones (abrasive is mixed with a sort of plastic resin and baked at a low temp.). Shapton pro stones are this type.

Shapton pro are very hard. Good for stainless, very fast, polishing stones are good on softer steels (easy to dull a hard blade on the 8k-15k if you don't hold the angle pretty carefully). Don't absorb water (and don't soak too long or the surface becomes rubbery). Don't form a slurry (other than the normal swarf) Shapton M5 are their cheap "half stones" The M24 only go up to 5k and are made for kitchen knives and people who like to push hard when they are sharpening. The M15 go up to 12k and are made for carpenters... they do form a slurry and act more like a typical waterstone. The Lr-250 and Hippo stones are huge versions for professional sharpeners.

Naniwa Super are similar to Shapton pro (resin bond) but rather soft so you can gouge them with a thin edge but easier to polish a hard blade (less likely to dull an edge due to free-hand slop on the polish stones. They also make a "snow white" 8k magnesia stone that is quite popular. Do not soak the Super stones or they turn rubbery. http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamon...526009/526012/ and http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamon...526009/624415/ Korin, Japan Woodworker, Hidatool and Sushivan carry Naniwa (they have a pic of an ebi -lobster or shrimp- on them)


Kitayama (North Mountain) 8k Superpolish stone... has the feel of a natural stone (and contains natural stone powder) forms a nice slurry that will break down further while polishing and produce a finish equivalent to a 10k or 12k stone. Medium hardness, medium wear. Arashiyama (Storm Mountain) are similar but I hear they are more suited to carbon steels. No need to soak

MinoSharp (sometimes listed as Global) come in a box with two sharpening guides for kitchen knives. These hold just the right amount of water (soak these) and handle like a natural stone (and leave a more mat-like finish like a natural stone too) forming a little bit of slurry. But, may leave a dark haze on some stainless steels (won't wash off, but another stone or SOS pad will remove it as it is just mud stuck in the pores of the steel). Slower than the Shaptons, but more fun to use.

Norton. These are US waterstones and they have the grit off a little (I hear tell that the 4k is closer to Shapton's 2k and the 8k is closer to to 5k or 6k). These are economical, cut well and come in a nice 3" width (be careful you don't get the 2" wide if you are looking for a cheaper price). Slower than Shaptons and wear faster but are much thicker too so it is a wash. Lots of people like these, especially for honing straight razors.

Matsunaga King makes so many stones that they are all over the place... everything from Sun Tiger carbide stones to the popular Super and Hyper series as well as cheap home stones. Here is their Japanese site that lists all the stones they make http://www.matsunaga-corp.co.jp/kakutoishi/01.html most appear to be clay bond (these can be kept in water), but they even have a well reviewed 1k diamond/ceramic stone (runs about $170 though). Anyway quality can be so-so to very good, depending on which ones you get.

Oribest are made by Sigma Power Company and are hard ceramic (decent but not rated as highly as some others)

Suehiro... they make white/yellow magnesia stones. Medium soft, slower than some of the others but easy to use. Decent stones but not outstanding. Don't absorb much water so you can just splash them. They don't form a lot of slurry unless you use a nagura, but the slurry can grab the back of a deba or the flat side of a chisel (air suction). They also make the ceramic CERAX stones.

Bester.... hard ceramic. Harder and more wear resistant than some of the others but slower. HoB has one if I remeber correctly so I'll let him comment on these.

Basically softer stones work well on hard steels (>Rc60) since they cut a bit faster and the polish stones are less likely to round your nice sharp edge (the edge may just make a tiny gouge in the stone if you goof the angle on a stroke).

Hard stones seem to control the edge of softer steels better.

Nagura and stones that form a slurry help control burrs (basically the polishing slurry abrades the back of the edge, and the burr, as well as the side that is touching the stone). The slurry on the Mountain Blue stones and the Kitayama also break down and become finer so produce a finer finish than their actual grit would indicate (polish on the slurry)

You may find some stones leave a bright scratch pattern, some leave a smoother more mat finish like natural stones and some will load up the pores in things like D2 or stainless and leave a dark haze (mud caught in the tiny pores, which is the reason I mentioned the Shapton Pro and Naniwa stones are good for stainless... think the Kitayama and Suehiro are also okay, but the Minosharp and most of the natural stones will do this)

Coarse stones wear very fast so get the big green or pink "bricks". You should probably also get your regular 800 to 1500 grit in single stones too, since you will use them the most. You can save money by getting combo stones in grits over 3000 (finish stones wear more slowly and you use them less)


http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopdis...88071388442897
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...aterstones.htm
http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/stones.html
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/M...gory_Co de=TH
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13098
http://www.bladegallery.com/accessories/stonepage.asp
some 9" round coarse naniwa stones here http://www.sushivan.com/b2b/mk/mk_m.asp?subcode=99
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/N!LWS.htm (they also offer DMT diamond kits with a Norton 8k http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T!D8.htm )

In Europe http://www.shokunin.co.uk/shokunin.htm
http://www.dick.biz/ (english version, tools, sharpening tools)
http://www.fine-tools.com/scharf.htm

Very Nice Randy. Well thought out. I would like to invite a sharpener person to this thread. She resides onother forums and would have some nice input. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for this!

Her name is Pam, I have talked to her on several occasions on knifeforums.com etc. She has a wealth of knowledge on waterstones. It is really interesting to hear knife experts opinions on straight razor sharpening, some seem to have an inkling of a clue but most try to apply proven knife sharpening techiniques to razors, bad idea if you want to shave with them.

The pyramid method, on the other hand will produce a great edge on a knife, go figure.

BTW, the Naniwa 10K stone on the japanwoodworker site gives the finest polish of any stone I have ever used.

Originally Posted by pikappa167

Her name is Pam,....
BTW, the Naniwa 10K stone on the japanwoodworker site gives the finest polish of any stone I have ever used.

Yes, Pam is amazing!

Is that you Lee?!? I was wondering how you liked the 10k. Any regerets about selling the Shapton 15k?

Rouget (knifeforums)

Ahh, so you are Rouget! Got it. The 10K is freaking awesome, no regrets on the 15K.

just in case you want a nice natural Japanese stone, check this one out. Only 3,000,000 Yen. Why that's a mere $25,000.00. Why not get two.

http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/...kudosui_e.html

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Norton. These are US waterstones and they have the grit off a little (I hear tell that the 4k is closer to Shapton's 2k and the 8k is closer to to 5k or 6k).

hmm.......

Is that a recommendation to get a Shapton 10k instead of the 15k?
I was getting ready to push the BUY button when I read this!!!

Originally Posted by pikappa167

Ahh, so you are Rouget! Got it. The 10K is freaking awesome, no regrets on the 15K.

jmorehead, I have the 15k pro from shapton and LOVE it. I go from a yellow coticule straight to the 15k as a finishing hone and it does wonders for me. Not sure if that answered your question or not... ......Jeff

PS Randy, that is a fantastic post. Thanks for sharing the fruits of your research!

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Norton. These are US waterstones and they have the grit off a little (I hear tell that the 4k is closer to Shapton's 2k and the 8k is closer to to 5k or 6k). These are economical, cut well and come in a nice 3" width (be careful you don't get the 2" wide if you are looking for a cheaper price). Slower than Shaptons and wear faster but are much thicker too so it is a wash. Lots of people like these, especially for honing straight razors.

Ok, since there seems to be such a large gap between Norton and Shapton's grading system (can't they all just get along?) And since my Amplex diamond paste is made by the same company as Norton (Saint-Gobain). I am now wondering if my 15k Shapton is really equivalent to 1 micron paste? (0.96 micron per www.shaptonstones.com) Would going to the .5 micron pasted strop be the next step after the 15k or would the .5 be the same or be a step backward?