Thread: Newbie questions by the truckload!

Greetings from a new initiate in the elite community of people who think it's actually a GOOD idea to spend hours honing a razor and then hold it to one's own throat. Fellow blade fanatics, I salute you.

A little background on me - I work in a knife shop in Chico, California and have sharpened countless knives for people, but my straight razor knowledge base came almost exclusively from this site, and only over the past few weeks. In light of this please excuse the rudimentary level of some of these questions.

1.) My theory on sharpening a straight razor is little different from that of a kitchen knife. Even simpler in fact, since the angle is already set by the spine of the blade. The blade in question was restored by my good friend Mr. Dremel and had no cutting edge. I started with a 'soft arkansas' and finished on a 'surgical black (hard arkansas)'. My first question is simple - how do the grit numbers you guys keep throwing around relate to the above mentioned hardness levels I'm used to? Is there any relation at all? Do you prefer a hard stone and years of honing or can I start with a more aggressive stone to cut down on the time investment?

2.) Given my theory on sharpening knives and with respect to the 'washboard' discussion recently posted, how exactly do you finish honing a razor before you move to the strop? (i.e. do you go backwards (spine first) as when stropping, or do you cut INTO the stone (edge first) as you would with a kitchen knife?)

3.) Is there some test you perform to see if a razor is sharp enough for shaving? My first shave a few hours ago was probably premature but I was excited. It hurt like hell even though to my surprise I didn't cut myself. The result was comparable to a very dull Sensor Excel blade. Obviously I need to hone more, but I'm wondering if you guys test something before shaving, or if it's just a 'hone, hone, shave, repeat' process.

Any information or tips you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again from your newest convert!

1) I would say use the stone you need. A fast cutter to establish the edge and a slow fine to finish the edge with anything in between which gets the job done best. Just be careful not to go too coarse to start or you'll be causing more problems than you solve.

2) Always cut into the stone with the edge leading to create an edge. ALWAYS.

3) You can use the thumb test (running your thumb pad across, not against the edge) to feel how it is progressing. Expect the sensation to get verysubtle as the razor becomes shave ready. The Hanging Hair test (slowly bring a clean hair, root sticking out down onto the edge) will tell you the razor is ready to try the shave test when the hair pops effortlessly.

Most of that is in the Help Files. You should read them.

X

Originally Posted by xman

2) Always cut into the stone with the edge leading to create an edge. ALWAYS.
X

Ok, I’m still a newbie on straight shaving but i have started to question this when I honed my first razor a month ago. (i.e. i'm not questioning that the edge leading method works- because it does to all of you folks, but is this really the ONLY way?) -Is it not possible to achieve shaving sharpness too with strop-stroke from start (hones) to finish (strop)?

when my first razor came, i have no means of honing it (via conventional means) so i Scary Sharped it (wet/dry sandpaper on flat marble plate) up to the finest grit i could find: 1200 grit "P" or FEPA grade which is equivalent to only 15 microns. i then made a strop charged with chromium oxide (rated at .5 microns) out of cartolina (akin to thin white carboard used in Toblerone packaging.) Green rouge doesn't rub into the paper strop evenly, i found out, so i used efficascent oil to spread it. (I suppose baby oil would work but perhaps it wouldn't dry up as fast.) 15 microns to .5 is a big jump so it takes more than a hundred strokes on the greened strop. Then i finally stropped it into nontreated cardboard.

Result? 'sorta' passes the hanging hair test- it doesn't severe hair if the hair is perfectly horizontal and you bring blade down (perfectly vertical.) But it cuts hanging hair if the blade is tilted to its side. Anyway i bought feather DE blades for comparison and found out that they can’t pass HHT too unless it’s sideways. (I made no scythe motion but pure push-cut to the best of my ability.)

As for the shave- it shaves ok. There was no pulling, no red patches on my sensitive moustache, but not the closest shave I have had…

Originally Posted by eewestcoaster

Greetings from a new initiate in the elite community of people who think it's actually a GOOD idea to spend hours honing a razor and then hold it to one's own throat. Fellow blade fanatics, I salute you....
A little background on me - I work in a knife shop in Chico, California and have sharpened countless knives for people, but my straight razor knowledge base came almost exclusively from this site, and only over the past few weeks. In light of this please excuse the rudimentary level of some of these questions.

Good day and welcome to the club,
I too have come to the world of the straight from a general cutlery background, so maybe I'll be able to relate to your issues and questions, I'll try anyway.

Originally Posted by eewestcoaster

1.) My theory on sharpening a straight razor is little different from that of a kitchen knife. Even simpler in fact, since the angle is already set by the spine of the blade. The blade in question was restored by my good friend Mr. Dremel and had no cutting edge. I started with a 'soft arkansas' and finished on a 'surgical black (hard arkansas)'. My first question is simple - how do the grit numbers you guys keep throwing around relate to the above mentioned hardness levels I'm used to? Is there any relation at all? Do you prefer a hard stone and years of honing or can I start with a more aggressive stone to cut down on the time investment?

Your off to a good start by dismissing most of what you "know" about sharpening a knife Vs. a razor ... I had this rude awakening as well just a year ago.
Arkansas stones are not generally recommended as razor hones (by those who actually use the razors). I know there are those who feel nothing surpasses the elusive black and translucent Arkansas hones but the fact of the matter is they are generally too coarse for any finishing. I would say start with your Black to set the edge and then move into a 8000 grit water hone to finish the edge.

As for the "grits" and how they relate.. well that's an on going debate in all cutlery because there is no set standard for rating hones. Generally, a True Hard Arkansas is rated as a comparative grit in the 1200 range and above. So there is no way of knowing if your hone is 1200, 1300, 9000 etc.... since Arkansas is a natural stone there is always variations in the hone as well. So one part might be around 3000, another may be 6000.. this will cause one to pull their hair out by the roots while honing a delicate razor.
Move to a water stone first of all... the Arkansas are good for "roughing" in the edge (which would amount to a finished edge on mist cutlery) but your going to want something with a more predictable and finer abrasive to finish that edge into a shaving product.

Originally Posted by eewestcoaster

2.) Given my theory on sharpening knives and with respect to the 'washboard' discussion recently posted, how exactly do you finish honing a razor before you move to the strop? (i.e. do you go backwards (spine first) as when stropping, or do you cut INTO the stone (edge first) as you would with a kitchen knife?)

As a general rule, the only time one "back hones" (i.e. spine first) Is to correct an edge. There have been some who feel that they get a good edge with a circular motion, or "wash boarding" the razor. The barber's manual suggests one only use a leading edge stroke because the micro serrations on the edge stay parallel, and since they are what does the "cutting" for you that helps maintain the consistent, fine edge.

Originally Posted by eewestcoaster

3.) Is there some test you perform to see if a razor is sharp enough for shaving? My first shave a few hours ago was probably premature but I was excited. It hurt like hell even though to my surprise I didn't cut myself. The result was comparable to a very dull Sensor Excel blade. Obviously I need to hone more, but I'm wondering if you guys test something before shaving, or if it's just a 'hone, hone, shave, repeat' process.

There is as much debate on an effective "test" as there is on the hones (if not more). Some are able to detect a good edge with the touch of the thumb, while others use the "hanging hair test". I elect to use the hanging hair because I can tell more about the edge that way than I can with my calloused thumb. Ultimately, the only test that matters is the shave test, the other's are just to tell you if you've come close enough to consider the shave yet or if more work is needed.
A quick search here will bring up many debates on what testing people use and why... you'll have to decide whats best for you.

Again, welcome to the club, I know together we will all confuse the hell out of you but eventually we'll have you shaving like a pro

Originally Posted by altec

Ok, I’m still a newbie on straight shaving but i have started to question this when I honed my first razor a month ago. (i.e. i'm not questioning that the edge leading method works- because it does to all of you folks, but is this really the ONLY way?) -Is it not possible to achieve shaving sharpness too with strop-stroke from start (hones) to finish (strop)?

Think of the edge of your razor like a steak knife...because that's what it looks like under enough magnification. Now we all know a steak knife has peaks and valleys on the edge (know as serrations as a whole).... your razor will have these peaks and valleys as well.... the idea is to get the "perfect" edge (which is, of course, impossible) where there are no peaks, nor valleys, just an even straight edge.

Now when we hone, we are "smearing" the steel off the blade, kind of like the way a crayon smears on paper to color or write. We want to "smear" the steel off in such a way that we will minimize any "feathered" edges (aka "burr") since these are too delicate and irregular to produce a good shave. When back honing we are dragging these delicate, feathered, strands of steel off the bevel but not necessarily off the edge... meaning they have the ability to "hang on" to the edge.
When we hone with the edge leading, we smear the steel back away from the edge, taking off the longer strands of steel completely leaving more shallow "peaks and valleys", and thus a more consistent edge.
Also, since the peaks and valleys are what does the cutting (on a micro level), we want them to remain the same as long as possible. A thin, long feathery "peak" will bend or break under the pressure of coming in contact with an object (stubble), while a short, stout peak will have less tendency to give under such contact and thus the razor "stays sharp"...there will be some variation of course, but this is corrected on the strop (thus, why we strop).

Boy there are some smart people around here..lol. Well I can't hone a knife but I'll throw in a little information of testing blades for you. No doubt there are different methods and debate. Its like a bunch of women in here sometimes....lol. But the funny thing about sharpness tests are that once you have a sharp razor to play with you don't need to worry so much about it because you've got some experience with it. First, shaving is a good idea to truely test the edge. It should be the last test you try though. The final..."Yea, that'll work" test. With a sharp blade you can feel how it runs on a strop. Its very different than when you use an almost sharp blade. Next there is the HHT, or hanging hair test. You can look that one up. I run the blade over my arm hair as suggested by someone else here, Nenad I think. Boy do I love that test. I can really read the blade with that test. If it cuts every hair instantly I've got a good blade. But how did I figure out how a really sharp blade feels on MY arm hair. Well, you guessed it. I used a really sharp blade and tested it. You got one of those around? No, maybe not. So when you do get one really, really, honking sharp run it over your arm hair and do a HHT to see what it feels like. Strop with it and feel the difference. Check it out under a microscope too if you have one. Then later you can use your own hair and compare your new blade to what you know you've been able to do in the past. I know a guy who tested his razors on his wifes hair. The HWHT. That Hanging Wife Hair Test I guess. And there are some guys who don't have any hair to cut. I used to grab chest hairs but them my girlfriend said "Well you can cut old gray hair with any knife silly" LOL...what gray?

Generally though I won't try shaving with a razor unless it mows down all my arm hair instantly and "draws" nicely on a strop. Then I test shave using water only. After all if its really sharp and truely smooth what would you need lather for? That way I can actually see what hair its removing by stropping on my hand after the pass and looking at the effected whiskers. And if it shaves nicely without lather, gotta be sharp enough for me with lather.

Good luck and have fun...

I will be the first to admit that I am not a master honer however I use the HHT and cutting the arm hair also. I actually bought a cheap badger brush when I started and use hairs from that for the HHT. However as stated the ultimate test is the shave. If it is smooth and doesn't pull then you have got it. Enjoy. In fact I just finished touching up 5 razors on my Norton 4k/8k water hone. Followed by a 12k hone then flatbed leather hone with Cr2O paste on it. The hairs just popped off the blade.

Wow - thanks to all for the great tips and suggestions. I was hoping you guys had a help file section, but somehow I missed all the links on the site. It will take me a while to process all this information, but I think I found exactly what I was looking for.

Also, Kelly - that illustration of 'smearing' metal off the edge is a PERFECT way to describe it. I've had mental images of similar things happening to kitchen cutlery in the shop, but was never really able to describe it to my customers. Now I know exactly what's going on - hopefully I can translate that into a shaveable razor after my requisite 27 years of honing is complete.

Again, many thanks.

Kelly,


You know that was a great image to visualize. I will use it in describing to others if you don't mind. It helped me last night when I was touching up my razors. Smearing that is exactly what we are doing.

I'm glad the analogy helped. It was just the only way I could think of describing the difference betwen in effect between honing edge first Vs. back honing.. Some time's the only way I can learn somthing new is to apply to something I already know, or can relate to.

...by all means partner, feel free to use at will. I dont hold the rights on any analogy