Thread: this bevel is scaring me

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Brad and Alex why in the world, would you spend all the time and effort to buff, polish, clean, and restore a razor if you are just going to mess it up all over again?????

That is what I don't understand at all, not one bit?????????????????????? I just can't wrap my brain around re-honing those ugly un-even spines back into a nicely restored razor....

I wouldn't spend all that time to make it pretty then mess it up again... I just regrind them in the first place! lol If it's too hollow to be reground, I don't bother. Besides, I always use tape too! lol

Not all customers can afford regrinding &/or restoration.
Sometimes a bit of 'ugly' spine wear is an acceptable tradeoff for a nice shaving edge & is the cheaper option for a new user. A layer of tape on some of the eBay nightmares people have asked me to hone would only serve to clog up my hones Horses for courses I think.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

It sounds like you are trying to simplify this...

You have soooooo many variables here it is actually more amazing that we ever get a small even bevel..

Just some things that can cause the problems you are describing

A warped spine
an un-even spine
a warped heel
a warped toe
a warped blade
an un-even grind
an un-lapped stone
an un-even stroke
un-even pressure
lifting the spine while honing
and probably a few more I am forgeting.....

All this and more can mess up the bevel/edge or spine...

No, it is not a matter of simplifying things, I was just laying out the logical building blocks for the construction of the edge based upon how the razor is made. There is nothing simple about it, aside from the inherent simplicity of the design itself. The bevel is determined by the width of the blade, relative to the thickness of the spine. A razor has a built in guide to regulate the angle at which it contacts the hone. We are not splitting atoms here. It's just the way it is. (In theory...)

That list was what I was looking for earlier when I asked "What could cause this?". And a few of them DO point toward "user error" as I thought they would. It just seems that there would be more ill informed people out there honing problems into good razors than mass made blades with such a variance from razor to razor that we have these undulating patterns on the bevel. I am sure that warping of a blade at the toe or heel is a very viable problem that pops up frequently, don't get me wrong. But the razors I am talking about seem to check out fine when checked with a straightedge. I can see what you mean about the uneven grind as well, and was thinking about that as I was falling asleep last night before reading this.

I guess that I fall into the camp of not wanting to go to the trouble to make a razor totally flawless. Not "not wanting" but not seeing the need. If I were relegated to shaving every morning on national television and were being judged on style, outcome, and fit & finish of my equipment, then I get it. But I am not, and I DO enjoy the aspect of wet shaving with a straight in that it sort of connects me to the way in which my Great Grandfather and Grandfather started off their days. I sort of doubt that they were worried about an uneven bevel before trudging off to work at the lumberyard. I am not either, though I did breech the topic as a matter of curiosity.

Thanks for all of your input, Glen. Don't let me come across as being a d**k, as I am grateful for every answer I have gotten from you. I am just juggling different approaches to this fine hobby of ours. You do awesome work, and the red "Superior" is the benchmark for my covered tang Boker when I redo it. As a result of all of this, I am going to give your approach a shot on this Landers Frary and Clark that I have been talking about.


Austin

The most common cause is honing with two hands. There is a lot of damage that occurs to razors over decades that leads to the belief in the present that what you are doing today causes no damage.

The problem with two handed honing is that you eventually have to put your hand down somewhere specific. . .

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The most common cause is honing with two hands. There is a lot of damage that occurs to razors over decades that leads to the belief in the present that what you are doing today causes no damage.

The problem with two handed honing is that you eventually have to put your hand down somewhere specific. . .

Ahhhh... I can see that. An otherwise straight blade would flex and wear in one spot when having more pressure applied to the middle with say, the index finger. Good point.

Originally Posted by blockhead

I am going to give your approach a shot on this Landers Frary and Clark that I have been talking about.


Austin

Really nice razors I have restored two of them, and both were top notch shavers very smooth edges...

I kinda misunderstood your first posts. I thought you initially said that the buffer could correct the uneven honewear....which it can't do.. you basically just said that it would smooth it out.. I was just agreeing with what Philadelph said because it is true. He must have misunderstood your first few posts as well.

-Brad

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Brad and Alex why in the world, would you spend all the time and effort to buff, polish, clean, and restore a razor if you are just going to mess it up all over again?????

That is what I don't understand at all, not one bit?????????????????????? I just can't wrap my brain around re-honing those ugly un-even spines back into a nicely restored razor....


edit:
sorry IMHO they are ugly

Originally Posted by blockhead

That list was what I was looking for earlier when I asked "What could cause this?". And a few of them DO point toward "user error" as I thought they would. It just seems that there would be more ill informed people out there honing problems into good razors than mass made blades with such a variance from razor to razor that we have these undulating patterns on the bevel. I am sure that warping of a blade at the toe or heel is a very viable problem that pops up frequently, don't get me wrong. But the razors I am talking about seem to check out fine when checked with a straightedge. I can see what you mean about the uneven grind as well, and was thinking about that as I was falling asleep last night before reading this.
Austin

Ok let me try and explain more here....

When I give an answer I try and do it using my experience of restoring and honing a lot of razors so I am combining a ton of different situations into that answer....

There are two types of problems I see..
1. is user induced ones from bad technique or bad stones...
2. is manufacturer induced by some type of of flaw in the straightness of the razor...

Both of these can look the same on the razor, and I need to correct them first to tell the difference, BUT and this is a huge BUTT ....

Why does it really matter????

If it was user induced when I re-hone it is gone... if it was a warp I cant fix it anyway I have to hone around it,, and if it was a bad grind, between the buffing and the tape it no longer matters...
In restoration you want a good solid shaving edge and the best looking razor you can produce, that's it really...

This is for my personal razors and those that come in for work...

I tried for a long time to figure out what happened to razors over their life like the ones that only have a worn toe or heel or frown I tried to figure out how the heck they were honed to cause those problems and I have a ton of theories but in the end they are just theories and they would take years to prove out...

Honestly I don't want to get drawn into the tape vs no tape discussion because it just comes down to personal opinion after awhile, BUT 1 layer of tape on the spine eliminates a ton of honing issues... and you guys can talk about the razor character and battle scars until you are blue in the face...
I think spine wear is ugly...that is my opinion and I am entitled to it...

Also here is a small fact, I have yet to have a person send me a razor for a full restore and say " Glen please leave those beautiful flat spots on the spine they look great"
Now to complete that yes many people just want the razor cleaned and honed but that is a different proposition...

And in the end this was the original question by the OP,

Problem is obvious -- bevel and hone wear are uneven, way deep toward the toe, hardly any near the heel. There's a lot of razor here, pretty good shine left, I think I can buff it up pretty well, but I don't want to start that until I'm pretty sure I can get a better bevel. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Which was the question I answered of how to make that go away...

Sand it, buff it, and tape it, and it will go bye bye....

Didn't mean to start a firestorm -- anyway, here's where I ended up. Got things a little more even, took it up to my 12k. For what it's worth, it shaves just beautifully... a very stiff blade; quiet on my face, very comfortable.

I promise to: (1) keep my left hand in my pocket doing something else while I hone (2) use less pressure (3) make super-sure to hone the entire blade

Please -- it was messed-up when I started

Originally Posted by stimpy52

Didn't mean to start a firestorm --

You didn't, this is actually the way things are learned on SRP, we discuss different approaches and we all walk away trying different things until the next time when we discuss it again using the experience that we learned...
If these discussions didn't happen the hobby would stagnate and get boring again... and none of us want that...