Thread: Edge building and arm hair test

It is actually a chinese 12k (the naniwa 12k was a bit too expensive).
I did stopped and checked at 50 strokes, then 100 then 150 with all strokes using no pressure, just keeping the blade flat.

In general, I don't cut corners, I lapped the hones, I go slow and I am careful. That's why it's frustrating.
My game plan for this week end is to start over and to stop only when I get the right result at the right level using all tests at my disposal.

If that still does not work, I'll have it done by a honemeister and ask him (or her - are there any?) what was done to the razor. It's all fun anyway!

Ok now that is odd, sounds like you are doing things right...

Originally Posted by tbernard64

It is actually a chinese 12k (the naniwa 12k was a bit too expensive).
I did stopped and checked at 50 strokes, then 100 then 150 with all strokes using no pressure, just keeping the blade flat.

In general, I don't cut corners, I lapped the hones, I go slow and I am careful. That's why it's frustrating.
My game plan for this week end is to start over and to stop only when I get the right result at the right level using all tests at my disposal.

If that still does not work, I'll have it done by a honemeister and ask him (or her - are there any?) what was done to the razor. It's all fun anyway!

One of the reasons that Randy suggested to me early on to shave test at the 8k level was that if the razor wasn't shave ready after the 4/8 going to a higher grit finisher was going to be an exercise in futility. Maybe shaving off of the 4/8 successfully before you move up to the 12k would be the way to go.

I remember these days when I was learning to hone. I laugh at myself now but at the time it was very frustrating. What I have found is that each razor (speaking of restorations here) had different requirements and different starting points. I use circles and because the edge usually needs a bevel reset I use time not lap counts to keep things even on both sides. Circles helps prevent over honing and wire edge. After I get it to cut arm hair I lighten up on the pressure. The only time I count strokes is in the 10 finishing laps at the end of each circle session up to 8k. From there it on to finishing and polishing hones where I do count laps but the honing speed is greatly increased.

What I have found is that if the edge isn't at the best level the current hone can provide, the extra time spend on that current hone to bring it to it best will be increased in large multiples on the next hone and so on. At that point my edges were almost always short of the potential.

Now if you are honing new razors the initial edge condition is more consistent between razors and circle or laps counts are more feasible as the amount needed are greatly reduced.

Be alert while honing and pay attention to the feel and sounds as you progress. Develop your test so they work for you and relate that to the sounds and feel (feedback) while honing. All of this will take time so hold off on the honing until you have the time to devote to it and have fun. As you get better at honing it will take less time and you will be able to 'fit it' into your schedule better.

Good luck!

By pressure when doing the first circles on the 1k, how much pressure are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't think of a simple pressure test but this one: if you were to push with your thumb on an empty soda aluminum can laying of its side, would the can:
- not deform
- deform a little (a quarter inch)
- deform a lot (half an inch)
- be crushed

Again, there probably is a better way to assess pressure than this but that's all I could think of. I must be thirsty!

Originally Posted by tbernard64

By pressure when doing the first circles on the 1k, how much pressure are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't think of a simple pressure test but this one: if you were to push with your thumb on an empty soda aluminum can laying of its side, would the can:
- not deform
- deform a little (a quarter inch)
- deform a lot (half an inch)
- be crushed

Again, there probably is a better way to assess pressure than this but that's all I could think of. I must be thirsty!

Yea, I know. Been there. At our last meet in November Lynn joined us as did Don and other from down state and as far as Pa. Back to topic: Lynn saw that I was not understanding the amount of pressure he was talking about so he demonstrated by taking my hand, which had a razor on the hone and applied his pressure. That is the only way I was really able to understand. He also said that the blade should wipe the water away so the hone almost looks dry aftere the blade passes over it. Pressure is part of the art/sport of honing. You have to develop your own feel for it. Too light a pressure will extend your honing time, which is not a bad thing for newbies. Too much pressure, you'll either snap/crack the blade (lots of pressure) or just keep the edge from obtaining it maximum sharpness. All I can say is that when we say light pressure, what ever you are using is probably too much. Moderate pressure, well, it like you are twisting a knob, not applying straight down. You want to hold the blade flat on the hone and then twist it a little so there is more force on the bevel and not as much on the spine. What you are looking for is the hone to 'bite' into the metal. The goal is to remove metal and thin out the extreme edge of the bevel, not put a cutting edge on it yet. You can gauge how well the hone is cutting by how black the water gets and how fast it gets there. After doing circles for a time w/ pressure I would lighten up a lot to a very mild amount of pressure so as to not deflect the blade (hollow grinds) and not damage the fine edge you will be putting on. I usually do this for about 30 seconds but your pressure, size of circles and speed will vary so this is just a token measurement as laps are a token. You need to do what ever it takes to get 'there'.

Let's put it another way: In doing the first set of circles with pressure, the more pressure you apply the faster the metal will be removed. Less pressure, longer time doing circles. When completing your length of time do 10 laps back and forth w/ x stroke. Time for the TNT. You will be looking for a good bite with some drag when you do the TNT. If it bites and skips and bites... you need to do more circles till the edge is the same for the entire length. Then move to circles w/ a very light pressure. Here you are reducing the scratch pattern and refining the edge. After the time span w/ light pressure do 10 laps back and forth with very light pressure, almost none, in an x stroke. Now test on arm hair. If it doesn't cut, back to the light pressure circles and then laps. You will develop a feel for the pressures to use as you gain experience. Once on the 8k hone I only use a very light pressure, which is hard to maintain after all of those circles with a moderate to heavy pressure.

Have at it. Pay attention to what you are doing and what is happening. Sights, sounds and feel all play a part in telling you what is happening. The only way to learn is by doing, paying attention, observing the results, doing it a different way like less or more pressure, pay attention, observe...

You get what I'm saying. The only way to avoid all of this is to go to a meet or meet up someone to show you one on one. Even then you will not have a good understanding until you have many hrs on the hones. There is no magic pill or text anyone can write that will give you what you will gain with experience and hrs of honing. Then, when you think you got it down you get a strange razor that changes everything.

We are having a meet in May and you are welcome to join us. Search for WNY meet thread created by CarrieM. Drop me a PM if you are interested or post to the thread.

Good Luck!

I found, that the problem with those cutting hair tests is, that people rely on reports from others as to how it should feel, or work cutting hair with a straight coming from a hone of a certain grid. Everyones hair is different. I recently found a way to test that makes the different structure of hair irrelevant. I used a new DE blade, held it with a small pair of pliers and cut some hair of my arm parallel and about 1/4 of an inch away from the skin. Then I did the same with a straight coming from my DMT 8000. If it feels the same or better with the straight, I can continue polishing the edge on my higher grid hone.

Hope this helps others to get a feeling how a sharp edge is supposed to cut.

Good to see you back Klaus!

This is a really good thread. It sounds like you are progressing really well. It could be the bevel or it could simply be a problem with polishing and stropping at this point.

It sounds like your leg hair is better suited to testing than your arm hair.

The questions about speed and pressure on these tests though make no sense what so ever.

Use a slow speed with the blade 1/2 inch away from the arm. There is no earthly way to apply pressure anywhere when conducting an arm hair test. I usually use a perpendicular stroke.

I've never been so close!

First of all, I would like to thank again all who helped me. I did it right this time, .....I think. I used the marker test, I did not go to the 5k until the blade dug into my thumb nail and I could shave arm hair. Apparently, my hair is not that fine! :-)

Moved to the 5K and held there doing light circles, X strokes, just like you guys told me to. Then to the 8k, where I used no pressure.

By then, I could cut arm hair 1/4 inch above skin, parallel to the skin (and not shave with pressure like I thought before).

It's never looked so sharp. I'll wait to shave with it tonight after my shower.

I'll keep you posted/Thanks to all you guys.