Thread: Why Pyramid?

Thanks for the feedback, there are some good thoughts to ponder here. So far I have been practicing with 2 ebay razors on my Norton. Without using the pyramid (because I didn't understand why), I have pretty good results. The ebay blades are great to practice with as I have had a few mishaps while learning how to develop the "feel" for honing. So, being open minded as I am, I will experiment with the pyramid and see it if makes a difference to me . I always strive for perfection so I imagine I will get it to work!

Emil

JL- I don't think any of us follow the pyramid blindly, most I think use whatever technique we use to judge blade sharpness and then determine when to stop using the pyramid and start focusing on other techniques.

Threeput-I agree on one level, but I think there are other options. I agree that 4K isn't the cutting edge but I have razors that are very sharp, and I consider these traditional. They cut simply because I have honed them to the thinest possible edge. I have other razors that are dull, really dull, and really smooth. And you know what, they cut whiskers just as effectively. Now I agree completely with what your saying on your razors, but you know what, its not the only path. You don't need teeth to cut, but you can cut using teeth. At least in my opinion. You can create a razor nearly as sharp as a DE. You can create a razor that cuts using teeth too. Again, only my opinion. But I think you should try it out, take one of your razors and just try and build teeth with it and don't hone it into oblivion like a DE, just let the teeth do the cutting and you'll see, eventually, that it is possible. Now, I don't know if you can have it both ways. I don't know if you can have ultra thin and have cutting teeth. In fact, I think most likely your right, most guys on here hone a razor into oblivion and they don't have any teeth on the blade. It cuts, just like a DE, by slicing into the whisker. But I've shaved with blades that simply weren't sharp by any definition and shouldn't cut. You can swipe the blade around your face at any angle and you hardly notice, yet it removes the whisker and feels smooth. I agree with you completly that MOST everyone here follows this protocol and most probably don't have any teeth on there razors, but I respectfully would like to disagree with any assertion that that is the only path to honing a razor to make it shave. It does explain everyones constant "ultra light" touch perspective on hone and strop, and why I use pressure on the hone and pressure on the strop though very clearly. I may agree someday that your approach, as with most others, that this ultra fine DE style slicing is the best way to shave. I don't know yet, but I do know that if I want a slicing blade I can get that pretty easy just by buying it. What I can't get is the ultra smooth cut that I achieve with a straight on any grit between 4K and 8K, never higher, and how that razor shaves sooooooo smooth. I have both styles of honing in my razor arsenal, mostly because I think experimentation is fun. But just because one person thinks a razor needs to be a Mach 3 wanna be, doesn't mean that decades of barbers were wrong. There could be other paths you just haven't seen yet.

And I agree with you, in your case, your right.

AF,

I must admit I'm a little bit at a loss of words as to how to respond to that. Firstly, thanks for the support. I honestly thought I was AGAINST the common ideal here on SRP. I thought everybody would rain hell down on me for what I thought in regards to honing, I never had an inclination to think I was in the majority with my views. As to shaving with teeth, I cannot truthfully say that I disagree with your views either. Only that I have never experienced it. The thought is intriguing though, and merits exploration. With my methods, I've never reached a smooth shave until way past that point on the stones, however, so the opportunity to see what you mean has never jumped up and presented itself. Different methods I suppose. Another factor could be that I have a very heavy beard, and if I ever cut corners, it is with my beard preparation. If a blade is not up to snuff for me, I don't really notice it until I get around to my chin area. That's the make or break section of my shave. If there's any tendency whatsoever for a blade to pull or catch on whiskers, it becomes painfully obvious when I reach my chin. Not literally painful, but I can shave all day with a sub-par edge and not get close there. Scything, straight down, across, whatever ~ makes no difference. Believe me when I say I hope I can learn your method and employ it as an option. I like the idea of your arsenal having both types of edges for different applications, or moods if you will. It sounds like less work, and I have several razors that simply won't take the kind of edge I'm trying to impart. TI's, no problem. Pumas and some Ducks, piece of cake. Beyond that, the blades that can handle it become fewer and farther between. The newer stuff (aside from a select few) seems to respond better. I can't WAIT until I get my hands on a custom with one of the hot-rod steels. Thanks for your feedback, and thanks for not tar-and-feathering me I must admit, I still have a feeling the lynch mob hasn't doused their torches just yet. I'll be watching this thread with great anticipation for the next few days heh

Jeff

Originally Posted by threeputt

AF,

As to shaving with teeth, I cannot ...

Jeff

Zappa's great album cover, once posted by Corey Greenberg on his shaveblog...

Jeff, I will put away my scyte and torch this time. Sharpening razors is lost art, and we are all trying to do our best here. That teeth thing didn't make any sence for me either, so since it was written in the barber's manual from 60's and discussed here a lot, I started collecting microscope pics and I am still puzzled. The pyramid method, weeell, I am still using it a bit, but every now and then, and than with hesitation... I try to keep my razors sharp with just the 8000, and rarely when things don't look good under my 8x jeweler's loupe, I'll hit the 4000... The pyramid method was created on the first place to avoid overhoning on the edge. Varying between high and low grits, if there is a burr (or wire edge) forming on the 4K, the 8K side will take care about it. It was designed (I think) for honing dull razor, or very dull eboy special. On those edges, the bevel is often uneaven across the edge, and if using just the 4K, when sharpening one part of the edge, you might oversharpen another. That's why you alternate grits, and going to the finer grit, you remove burr from the lower. Just like in knife sharpening, you don't go to the finer grits, untill you raise burr on the lower...

Now, there was a GREAT article link, for a large pdf document posted over at the yahoo forum. The document is called "Experiments on Knife Sharpening" and it's written by:

John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Iowa State University
Ames, IA

It adresses the techniques of sharpening any edge, including straight razor's, and using SEM (scaning electrone microscope) pics up to 10,000x magnification (it's not a typo) is a must read for sharpening geeks... On ocasion, they are measuring the edges of an (expertly) honed straight razor and fresh gillete blade, and they look almost identical, with the very cuting edge thickness of about 0.35~0.4 microns...
I tryed uploading it here last night, but with no success... I think it was downloaded directly from the Department of Materials Science and Engineering, Iowa State University web site...

have fun,
Nenad