Thread: when to do the HHT? or, I am not sure I like the Norton

as some of you know from my introduction, i was able to hone my vintage razor enough for a decent shave the other day using oil stones leather and some abrasives i had.

Today my norton 4000/8000 came and there was great rejoicing. I knew my razor could be sharper so out it came and got honed on the norton.
Dang, the norton made it duller!
I came back here and read some post and tried a variety of things such as truing up the norton with sand paper, the pyramid, and making sure that only the weight of the blade was applying pressure. At some points I even freehanded it so that the pressure was less than blade weight. During most of my honing i could feel good suction between the razor and the stone.

at no point was I able to get the blade to pass the HHT without substantial stropping before hand.
after a lot of work i was finally able to get the blade back the the sharpness it was before it met norton.

is it unreasonable to try to get the blade to pass the HHT after honing and before stropping?
If its not reasonable to get it to pass the test before stropping why did i wast 70 bucks on a stone that doesnt make my razor any sharper than my oil stone?
If it is resonable, then what am I doing wrong?

One of the things one of those texts mentions (or maybe I read it somewhere on the net) said it was important to keep your wrist exactly the same from one direction to the next. The grip changes subtly at the forfinger and thumb. Inspect what you are doing with them carefully to see what you can notice.

That's just one idea. It could be any of a dozen different things that is keeping you from getting there. Like I said, review the files. You never know what you thought you remembered.

X

Spend some time to get to know your norton. Watch Lynn's video. Take your time. The norton is finer grained than any of your oil fed whett stones, (this includes the arkansas surgical black and the arkansas transparent)

I sharpen many woodworking tools and also knives. I love the oil stones for many things, but a razor has higher needs.

I prefer to go from the norton or belgium yellow to the linnen strop and then to the leather stropp. I am sure many others have a different opinion or different approach. You will have to find what is right for you. The members here will be a mentor and a valued rescource for you, as they have been for me. Also there are many threads to research.

Now don't go and blame the hone for dulling your razor. The fact is the norton didn't dull your razor, you did. As just about everyone here will tell you you can bring your razor to shaving perfection using that hone. What you need is more experience and it doesn't come fast or easy. Follow the advice of the others here and remember to watch your pressure on the hone as well as the consistancy of the stroke and the manner in which you begin and end each stroke as well as your angle.

Just keep practicing.

Hi Trapperjohnme,

The Norton is very efficient and most likely requires a much lighter touch and fewer strokes than you are accustomed to using your oil stones. I'd contact Lynn, our honemeister extraordinaire, and he'll get you on the right track.

Hal

Your post isn't very clear. And I'm not a gritologist like many on here. Its true the Norton is a difficult beast to work with. First, with the Norton; lap it, ensure its true, and try NOT soaking the 8k into oblivion (just add water). The techniques are important as mentioned.

Second the Norton is predominately, in my humble opinion, a workhorse hone for the mid level process. It sounds to me like you replaced the grit levels provided by a Norton with another process and then tried to use the Norton alone to do more than it should/could. You can get a good shaving razor with a Norton but it takes practice, and I follow up with pasted strops sometimes or higher grit stones. Personally, I hate the 8K side of the Norton, love the 4K though, anyway. . If your first process, whatever that is gets you to an HHT, then you should look at a hone that is probably in the 15K class or a pasted strop. The main reason to keep the Norton is that it is better than most hones at developing an edge up from nicked to shaving sharp all by itself (again with practice). In my opinion, and I don't recall recommending the Norton to you, I would suggest finding something in your arsenal now that bridges the long gap between the 4k and 8k of the Norton. For a beginner I think that gap is hard to jump. Have you concluded what grit all the tools your working with now are? Also, I think, as crazy as this sounds different hones have differing "speeds". That is to say compared to your previous tools a Norton hones a little faster or a little slower. This isn't good or bad just requires completely differing amounts of laps and technique, and your original system is what your using. Its kinda like a guy buying graphite shafted golf clubs and saying they suck the first time he takes them out on the links. He prefers his old steel shafts.

I would focus on your Norton, because its a really a good all around hone. But you can go back to your old system. With the Norton I would, if I were to visit your house tomorrow, throw out all conventional wisdom and start rubbing my finger along all the things you say you use to hone with, including the Norton. I would then advise you to hone the razor up using very slight pressure to ensure the blade stays flat onto each progressively smoother surface, regardless of whether the "known" grit is correct or not. I would advise you, over a cup of coffee ofcourse, to try and learn when each grit is done providing benefit and when to learn to move up. A little microscope or thumb tests work well for this.

Ultimately, though I can't tell you that your Norton is better than what you've got working now. Which since it works for you is really more important than any other issue. You can produce a razor that passes the hanging hair test though that you would never want to shave with. The 8K side of a Norton should produce a good edge inbetween the tools your are using now, but takes practice using. I suggest starting with adding the 8k hone alone to your current arsenal and use it wet (not soaked) and then add lather (shaving cream) to it for a few passes and then try the hangin hair test again. Keep in mind that I use a few techniques with an 8K Norton which is a whole different animal than the 4k side. I use either very controlled x pattern laps or I use very "airy" light, long, sweeping x pattern passes. Both are useful depending on the razor edges sharpness at that moment. I suggest, using the long sweeping passes after the controlled passes, and adding lather. Ensure you keep the razor FLAT though. Hold you right arm up in the air for a sec and pretend your a conductor of an orchestra and whimsically move your "baton" through the air in a Figure 8. Now, move to razor to the 8k side of the hone and "conduct" the hone to do your bidding. Just make sure your keeping flat now through the entire sweep in both directions and spinning it over its spine correctly without using pressure. Remember when your hand was in the air? It developes a feel of motion to it, the velocity of your hand moving through the air, see if you can replicate that feeling of an airy light touch with, whats the word, momentum. But remember how your hand in the figure 8 motion is not moving is a single plane? Your up and down and all around, you've gotta replicate the feel without all the sloppy motion, because the blade must be kept flat, for every single stroke.

See, I think someone on here mentioned that honing was difficult...they might be right. Try and have fun though because you'll be practicing for a while.