Thread: My first honing on coticule

Originally Posted by rickboone

You're not the first to say that and I respect your opinion. That said, I do not own other hones at the moment.

My question is; WHY learn on Nortons? Or any synthetic for that matter? Just using Norton as an example because that is what you said.

Is it the fact that they produce faster results? Is that the only benefit of learning on something else? Or are there other reasons?

If just speed, what is wrong with learning slowly or going slowly? Do you find people develop bad habits during this slow process or they get frustrated and rush it or what?

My personal opinion, because you do not have to learn the character of your stone when you can't even produce an even stroke because of inexperience. When you have some practice under your belt with built muscle memory and knowing exactly what to look for in a razor in terms of edge problems uneven honewear etc, then you can go on to use fancier stones.
You are trying to do two things from scratch learn how to hone and learn how to use coticule which on itself has a few variables that you need to determine on your own to get the job done.
Your results can be off because you either do not have consistent stroke technique, too much pressure, you do not know how to use the coti in terms of proper dilution and so on, or the razor has some problem and you are not addressing it. That is a lot of variables there, and by using a well established and consistent synthetic progression all you have to worry about is stroke,pressure and the right type of stroke.
Hope this answers the question.

How many passes does it take for your slurry to turn grey or black? This is very important to know because it will show you how the hone develops keenness to the edge. If the hone is very fast, like mine with slurry, then once the slurry is blackened you can actually go in reverse and the slurry will DULL THE EDGE again. If your coticule is slow with slurry it will just take more passes to get the bevel going and develop a keen edge. The faster ones with slurry seem to be the hardest to learn on because they start to go backwards and dull the razor in the slurry. Mine is very hard to learn on and it takes a long time to master, Bart even told me this in the thread I linked on page 2.

Sham said something to me that made a lot of sense when he mentioned honing on a coticule vs a norton or something for a beginner:

"Why ride a camel to a place far away when you can drive a car?"

The mystique of honing on a coticule is a great one and it's a lot more "Earthy" of an experience. I think more down to Earth people that like being outdoors find that appealing about the coticule, it's basic once you learn it well and old fashioned.

I would at least ask someone to use their Norton 4k/8k and see how it feels compared to the coticule and see if you like the results better.

The coticule is harder to master . You can get a fantastic shave of coticule, with the right no how. for a beginner it would be difficult. unicot on the other hand would be easy. I never liked messing with double bevels. I started on 4k 8k still can be tricky if you have no experiance. I think you have to get a old razor and just practice daily for 10 minutes your honing stroke. Practice the roll and normal x strokes. Then you will be more confident in your stroke. If you only want one hone then coticule it is. Also 4k/8k combo is ideal one hone followed by coticule.

i liked both hones and would have them both if i was you. Or the naniwas instead of nortons.

Rick, I understand exactly where you are coming from, everyone has given you excellent advice, and while the answers may not be the ones you want to hear, it might help to slow down a little and rethink your position.

I personally do not feel qualified to give advice, but I will share the story of my honing journey with you. I first purchased a set of Norton’s based on everyone’s advice on the board, and got a DMT for lapping. I focused on proper strokes, pressure (or lack thereof) and learned the TNT, TPT, and marker test, I made many attempts to make the Norton’s work for me, but the the 4K always felt gritty, and I could never get a bevel set properly, during this learning curve I completely destroyed a Wapi, and so I put the Norton’s in a closet and left them there.

I then bought a coticule from Sham, and I was excited, I felt like now I would be able to hone a razor, after all everyone loves coti’s right? I followed many tips and tricks, and while I didn’t “ruin” any razors, I wasn’t able to make a blade shave ready. I blamed my failure on the coticule, and so I bought more coticules (and developed HAD), seeking the magic one that would make a honer. Then Bart came out with his “unicot method”, which I followed to the letter,I wasn’t crazy about taping the spine, but I was desperate for a method that would work for me. I tried it on four different coticules using a 7 day set I had picked up, all the blades were identical, the only variable’s were the coticules and my inexperienced hand. As I followed Bart’s method it became clear to me that out of the 4 coticules I had at the time, only one of them really did well at setting a bevel, so I went back and re-honed the razors using that one coti, and I actually achieved an edge that I could shave with, If I recall my words were that the blades were not “Scary Sharp” but sharp enough to have a smooth shave, it was a milestone, and I felt like I had conquered Mt. Everest and was on top of the world! Then the rain came down on me, and Glen (GSSIXGUN) challenged me, he asked me how a razor that was not honed to its full sharpness potential could give a good shave, I replied that “it works for me, and I am happy with the shave I get off the coticule”, but Glen’s words always nagged me in the back of my mind, and even though I didn’t want to admit it, I knew he was right and I still was missing something, because I was still buying razors from honemeisters to get good shaves.

Then another path of my journey came, I read a post by Lynn that talked about the Norton’s needing to be heavily lapped to expose a “good surface” and get past the “grittiness”. So following his advice I drug the Norton’s out of the closet and lapped off about a 1/8 of an inch, and lo and behold, I had a much smoother surface on my 4 K! I then took a Boker “red injun” and honed it following Lynn’s pyramid method, and it worked flawlessly, it was popping arm hair in mid air! I then used my harder coticule to polish, and finished with my Escher, and I achieved my sharpest blade ever! Now I knew I was onto something, so I tried another razor, and guess what? Same results! 30 razors later I knew I was finally able to hone my own razors and achieve the results I desired! It was during this time that I realized how right Glen, Lynn, Sham, Jimmy, and all the other experts here were when they emphasized how important the lower grits are and how the only way to get a blade really sharp is to focus on the bevel, everything else is just icing on the cake.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have stayed with the synthetics until I achieved good result before I moved on to the more difficult naturals. I have continued to add Natural stones to my collection, I love the way they smell, and the way they feel, and the way they finish my edges, but, it is a continuous process getting to know each of them and understand their individual capabilities, and while my Norton’s may being boring, their ability to remain consistent gives my blades a sharpness that provides the foundation to an edge that delights my face every day.


So in a nutshell, here is what I have learned:
· Take the time to work on your strokes, start slowly, speed will develop over time
· Bevel setting is THE most important step in the process of attaining sharpness
· Test often – TNT, TPT
· Synthetic’s are like machines, they performs the same task over and over, with excellent consistency for repeatable results
· Coticules are like humans, everyone is different, each has a different skill set, and it takes time to learn their personalities, and when you add in different concentrations of slurry, and the variables are become endless.

If you decide to get some synthetics and want a practice razor, Pm me your address and I will send you one, it isn’t pretty, but its better to learn with one that isn’t too valuable

Thats an exallant post.

Originally Posted by currentman

Rick, I understand exactly where you are coming from, everyone has given you excellent advice, and while the answers may not be the ones you want to hear, it might help to slow down a little and rethink your position.

I personally do not feel qualified to give advice, but I will share the story of my honing journey with you. I first purchased a set of Norton’s based on everyone’s advice on the board, and got a DMT for lapping. I focused on proper strokes, pressure (or lack thereof) and learned the TNT, TPT, and marker test, I made many attempts to make the Norton’s work for me, but the the 4K always felt gritty, and I could never get a bevel set properly, during this learning curve I completely destroyed a Wapi, and so I put the Norton’s in a closet and left them there.

I then bought a coticule from Sham, and I was excited, I felt like now I would be able to hone a razor, after all everyone loves coti’s right? I followed many tips and tricks, and while I didn’t “ruin” any razors, I wasn’t able to make a blade shave ready. I blamed my failure on the coticule, and so I bought more coticules (and developed HAD), seeking the magic one that would make a honer. Then Bart came out with his “unicot method”, which I followed to the letter,I wasn’t crazy about taping the spine, but I was desperate for a method that would work for me. I tried it on four different coticules using a 7 day set I had picked up, all the blades were identical, the only variable’s were the coticules and my inexperienced hand. As I followed Bart’s method it became clear to me that out of the 4 coticules I had at the time, only one of them really did well at setting a bevel, so I went back and re-honed the razors using that one coti, and I actually achieved an edge that I could shave with, If I recall my words were that the blades were not “Scary Sharp” but sharp enough to have a smooth shave, it was a milestone, and I felt like I had conquered Mt. Everest and was on top of the world! Then the rain came down on me, and Glen (GSSIXGUN) challenged me, he asked me how a razor that was not honed to its full sharpness potential could give a good shave, I replied that “it works for me, and I am happy with the shave I get off the coticule”, but Glen’s words always nagged me in the back of my mind, and even though I didn’t want to admit it, I knew he was right and I still was missing something, because I was still buying razors from honemeisters to get good shaves.

Then another path of my journey came, I read a post by Lynn that talked about the Norton’s needing to be heavily lapped to expose a “good surface” and get past the “grittiness”. So following his advice I drug the Norton’s out of the closet and lapped off about a 1/8 of an inch, and lo and behold, I had a much smoother surface on my 4 K! I then took a Boker “red injun” and honed it following Lynn’s pyramid method, and it worked flawlessly, it was popping arm hair in mid air! I then used my harder coticule to polish, and finished with my Escher, and I achieved my sharpest blade ever! Now I knew I was onto something, so I tried another razor, and guess what? Same results! 30 razors later I knew I was finally able to hone my own razors and achieve the results I desired! It was during this time that I realized how right Glen, Lynn, Sham, Jimmy, and all the other experts here were when they emphasized how important the lower grits are and how the only way to get a blade really sharp is to focus on the bevel, everything else is just icing on the cake.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have stayed with the synthetics until I achieved good result before I moved on to the more difficult naturals. I have continued to add Natural stones to my collection, I love the way they smell, and the way they feel, and the way they finish my edges, but, it is a continuous process getting to know each of them and understand their individual capabilities, and while my Norton’s may being boring, their ability to remain consistent gives my blades a sharpness that provides the foundation to an edge that delights my face every day.


So in a nutshell, here is what I have learned:
· Take the time to work on your strokes, start slowly, speed will develop over time
· Bevel setting is THE most important step in the process of attaining sharpness
· Test often – TNT, TPT
· Synthetic’s are like machines, they performs the same task over and over, with excellent consistency for repeatable results
· Coticules are like humans, everyone is different, each has a different skill set, and it takes time to learn their personalities, and when you add in different concentrations of slurry, and the variables are become endless.

If you decide to get some synthetics and want a practice razor, Pm me your address and I will send you one, it isn’t pretty, but its better to learn with one that isn’t too valuable

This is Priceless.
Thank you for honest post.

i wish more people same as you will come out and explain their experience.
Not every coticule mean to use for straight razors.
They are natural hones and approximate grit is 4-8k level.
check this list from srp member.


GRADE by (Oldengaerde)

Common
Quarter Fine
Half Fine
No. 1 Fine
Superfine
Extra Choice
Extra Choice Sel.
Barbers' Special
Old Hickory
Old Rock
_____________
Only last 3 is suitable for straight razor. JimmyHAD BOUGHT Last 2 available ones .
To get right coticule took me years and i get only 1.
That is why it is not easy to find right coticule for use straight razor.
you have to ask question from seller about your stone.
About Unicot/Dulicot
Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

Originally Posted by Disburden

I would email Bart pictures of your coticule, they're all different and yours may work differently than mine, etc.

mine is a very fast cutter with slurry, super fast, it turns slurry black in ten passes. On water it's the slowest hone in the world and polishes only after about 200 passes or so. It is a La Nouvelle Veine and from the faster side of that layer of coticule.I really had to tune in my dilution method to make sure I get keenness from the water without diluting to much and not having any keenness. You can see mine here:
My one and only coticule - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

Once Bart tells you what kind of Coticule you have you can then ask him the speed of the hone (about) in slurry and in water. Then you will need to tune your dilution method to get the razor to be truly shave ready.

Honing only on a coticule is HARD and it takes a TON of experience and practicing. This is why I prefer synthetic hones and then finishing on an Escher.

You can PM me if you want me to explain more, I have practiced this method.

Not to go off topic, but I find the performance of your coticule as you describe it very interesting and even curious. I am not a coticule expert. I've used and owned maybe 10 different coticules ranging from mostly "vintage" to newly mined and of different hardness and cutting ability/speed. With my fast cutting coticules, to a stone, they are what I'd consider to be "soft". In contrast, the coticule stones I have that I consider to be slow but good polishers are hard; akin to honing on glass. Polar opposites. Actually, my softest and fastest cutting coticules are NOT good finishers. They cut too well. In contrast again, my hard coticules that polish well but are slow wouldn't raise a slurry on their own if I literally did 1,000 passes with water. This stone I speak of, an 8"x3" natural combo with olive green coticule surface I would rate easily at 12k+. If I raise a slurry artificially and only from the stone using say a 600 grit DMT (versus using another coticule rubbing stone), those hard polishers simply will not cut rapidly.

Your stone seems to perform both cutting and polishing at both extremes (fast cutter with slurry and slow but effective polisher with water).

I'm perplexed and intrigued. Why do you think your stone performs this way?

Edit: I read your link to Bart's site about your stone. I'll have to take pics of my fastest cutter and post them if Rick, the OP doesn't mind. My fastest vintage stone has a look similar to yours and by your picture I would venture to say your stone when dry has a "soft" creamy almost velvety sensation rather than a hard glass like surface? I can believe Bart then, that such a stone simply requires mastery of its uniqueness to uncover its polishing ability. Natural hones in general can be tricky to master or discover the "sweet spot". To date, I'll say mine seems simply to cut too effectively to put an ultra fine polish on the bevels like my other coticules can. Don't get me wrong, I have every intention of keeping the fast soft coticule I have; but, not for its polishing abilities, but instead for its cutting ability.

Chris L

Chris,

The stone is actually hard, I will have to comment more when I am home from work, but if I drag my finger nail on it it doesn't scratch the stone easily. I haven't owned many coticules but it definitely is not soft. It's a very strange hone and it's very "bipolar" in the way it cuts. It has veins in the upper and side surfaces (As you see in the picture), so I am thinking maybe that impacts the slurry speed? Literally 10 Half strokes with milky slurry causes a blackened swarf on the hone, if I am polishing with water I need to do 100 laps or more to get acceptable results. It takes a very calculated approach to dilute the slurry to gain keenness into the polishing stages.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

No one is blocked on my website. We currently don't see the need to monitor or block IP addresses. Everyone is welcome, even to disagree. You're as welcome to drop by as anyone else, Sham. There were some problems with the server on May 1st and 2nd. Maybe that caused your problem.

About the hart of the matter: I bet you all know I disagree with a some of what has been said in this thread. There are many ways and worthy hones to sharpen a razor. Nortons, Naniwa's, Shaptons, Japanese Natural hones, Coticules, Thuringians. They all require a decent honing stroke. Apart from that, each setup has its approach, some closely related, other's more deviating from the current mainstream. I'm writing "current" mainstream, because these things tend to be in motion, as anyone that would care to dig up threads from a few years ago, could find out.

I can only testify the following.

In between August 2009 and today, I have throughly assessed over 50 Coticules. The stones were only selected on size (to allow for razor sharpening) and to come from as many different Coticule layers as I could get my hands on.
I have sharpened a minimum of 3 razors on each of these, each razor test shaved at least half of my face with a WTG and ATG pass, and then some tweaking strokes. About 2/3 of the razors honed, were sent to me for honing. There haven been 2 Coticules of those 50 (both from "La Veine aux CLous"), that could not set a bevel. Maurice of Ardennes warned me up front that they were probably to slow for razors, but I wanted to try anyway. The finishing properties were excellent.
I occasionally score a razor on Ebay, usually in abominable state, because I don't like to spend much. These razors often come with seriously rounded bevels, and it happens that I need to file out my DMT-600 to do in 5 or 10 minutes what would otherwise take me a small hour on a speedy Coticule. But for the razors sent to me, that were mostly dulled beyond touch-up from regular use, I haven't felt the need to visit the DMT-600. I raise slurry once. It takes me in between 15 and 1 minute to set the bevel. (my rule of thumb is that when 10 minutes of work doesn't show the least hint of a bevel being completed, I jump down to something coarser). When the bevel is present, I start the dilution stage. That takes me 4 or 5 minutes, but I imagine it might take someone inexperienced 15 minutes. Finishing takes 30 laps or so.
Should it fail (which it did 9 times out of 10 at my beginning, now about 1 out of 10, I rely on the HHT straight off the hone to decide), it takes another few minutes to tape the spine and take give the razor 20 laps on very thin slurry and 50 on water.

That's how it has been working for me. Is this the easiest way to sharpen a razor? I don't know. I didn't start straight razor shaving because it was the easiest way to shave my beard. It appealed to me for the tradition and artisanship, and so does sharpening with a Coticule. If my ancestors could do it with just that stone, so could I, I figured.

There's this person in Antwerp, who owns a store that sells shaving paraphernalia. For about 20 years, he's hosting shaving courses. There's usually a waiting list. He also uses the Coticule for bevel setting (although he doesn't call it that way). His approach is simple and elegant: he hones on milky slurry till the bevel is ready. (he has some kind of test, watching how the edge undercuts a thin film of water on the hone). Then he finishes the edge on a paddle strop with Dovo red paste. His razors shave well. He recommends to touch-up on the same Dovo red paste. When that fails to restore a good shave, he puts it back on the Coticule.
I didn't follow the course, but I saw him do it, and I own a copy of his manual. I believe his approach sticks close to how razors where sharpened 70-100 years ago.
That Coticules could be used as a finisher as well, is something I picked up on this very website.
The real challenge, in my opinion and experience is getting the right keenness off a Coticule, to unleash its full finishing potential. Setting a bevel on it is not harder than let's say setting a bevel on a 2K synthetic. Finishing on it is not hard at all. Just 30-50 laps (in my opinion). But what's in between those two, that's the part that needs to be mastered, or obtained with help of a good synthetic hone in the 6-10K range. Gary has been reporting great results with his Naniwa 10K for that. And I have good experiences with the Chosera 10K myself. Obviously both these hones have finishing ambitions of there own. I believe it's a matter of personal preference whether someone favors the Coticule finish on top of that. I know I do.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I certainly agree with the personal preference Bart. It would really help if you had more experience with other stones from a comparison standpoint. I have honed a couple thousand razors using the Coticule as a finisher and although it is a nice stone and will work, it has never produced either the best results or the most consistent results for me as a finisher. As far as bevel setting, I have used your method on several hundred razors off of 4 Coticules and an Escher and a Japanese Asagi and can tell you that I cannot find an old wedge with uneven hone wear which is different on both sides that I can get a decent bevel on in 15 minutes. I can't get a bevel started on most in this condition in 15 minutes even with a 220 grit stone. Great that you are having these kind of results. I find your method works best when there is minimal flattening on the spine and will work with some flattening, but again 15 minutes is not something anyone can do and particularly not a new person. The method itself in my opinion is very cool. I also find that I need to tinker with the finish on many razors still when finishing using your method with a Coticule. I am also glad that I own a few Coticules and they are fun to play with.

I admire your undying passion and love for the Coticules and again believe they are a very nice stone. I also believe there are better stones both Natural and Synthetic and look forward to discovering more great stones in the future as I look forward to additional methodologies and discoveries from you.

All the best,

Lynn