Thread: My first honing on coticule

Originally Posted by currentman

Rick, I understand exactly where you are coming from, everyone has given you excellent advice, and while the answers may not be the ones you want to hear, it might help to slow down a little and rethink your position.

I personally do not feel qualified to give advice, but I will share the story of my honing journey with you. I first purchased a set of Norton’s based on everyone’s advice on the board, and got a DMT for lapping. I focused on proper strokes, pressure (or lack thereof) and learned the TNT, TPT, and marker test, I made many attempts to make the Norton’s work for me, but the the 4K always felt gritty, and I could never get a bevel set properly, during this learning curve I completely destroyed a Wapi, and so I put the Norton’s in a closet and left them there.

I then bought a coticule from Sham, and I was excited, I felt like now I would be able to hone a razor, after all everyone loves coti’s right? I followed many tips and tricks, and while I didn’t “ruin” any razors, I wasn’t able to make a blade shave ready. I blamed my failure on the coticule, and so I bought more coticules (and developed HAD), seeking the magic one that would make a honer. Then Bart came out with his “unicot method”, which I followed to the letter,I wasn’t crazy about taping the spine, but I was desperate for a method that would work for me. I tried it on four different coticules using a 7 day set I had picked up, all the blades were identical, the only variable’s were the coticules and my inexperienced hand. As I followed Bart’s method it became clear to me that out of the 4 coticules I had at the time, only one of them really did well at setting a bevel, so I went back and re-honed the razors using that one coti, and I actually achieved an edge that I could shave with, If I recall my words were that the blades were not “Scary Sharp” but sharp enough to have a smooth shave, it was a milestone, and I felt like I had conquered Mt. Everest and was on top of the world! Then the rain came down on me, and Glen (GSSIXGUN) challenged me, he asked me how a razor that was not honed to its full sharpness potential could give a good shave, I replied that “it works for me, and I am happy with the shave I get off the coticule”, but Glen’s words always nagged me in the back of my mind, and even though I didn’t want to admit it, I knew he was right and I still was missing something, because I was still buying razors from honemeisters to get good shaves.

Then another path of my journey came, I read a post by Lynn that talked about the Norton’s needing to be heavily lapped to expose a “good surface” and get past the “grittiness”. So following his advice I drug the Norton’s out of the closet and lapped off about a 1/8 of an inch, and lo and behold, I had a much smoother surface on my 4 K! I then took a Boker “red injun” and honed it following Lynn’s pyramid method, and it worked flawlessly, it was popping arm hair in mid air! I then used my harder coticule to polish, and finished with my Escher, and I achieved my sharpest blade ever! Now I knew I was onto something, so I tried another razor, and guess what? Same results! 30 razors later I knew I was finally able to hone my own razors and achieve the results I desired! It was during this time that I realized how right Glen, Lynn, Sham, Jimmy, and all the other experts here were when they emphasized how important the lower grits are and how the only way to get a blade really sharp is to focus on the bevel, everything else is just icing on the cake.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have stayed with the synthetics until I achieved good result before I moved on to the more difficult naturals. I have continued to add Natural stones to my collection, I love the way they smell, and the way they feel, and the way they finish my edges, but, it is a continuous process getting to know each of them and understand their individual capabilities, and while my Norton’s may being boring, their ability to remain consistent gives my blades a sharpness that provides the foundation to an edge that delights my face every day.


So in a nutshell, here is what I have learned:
· Take the time to work on your strokes, start slowly, speed will develop over time
· Bevel setting is THE most important step in the process of attaining sharpness
· Test often – TNT, TPT
· Synthetic’s are like machines, they performs the same task over and over, with excellent consistency for repeatable results
· Coticules are like humans, everyone is different, each has a different skill set, and it takes time to learn their personalities, and when you add in different concentrations of slurry, and the variables are become endless.

If you decide to get some synthetics and want a practice razor, Pm me your address and I will send you one, it isn’t pretty, but its better to learn with one that isn’t too valuable

This is Priceless.
Thank you for honest post.

i wish more people same as you will come out and explain their experience.
Not every coticule mean to use for straight razors.
They are natural hones and approximate grit is 4-8k level.
check this list from srp member.


GRADE by (Oldengaerde)

Common
Quarter Fine
Half Fine
No. 1 Fine
Superfine
Extra Choice
Extra Choice Sel.
Barbers' Special
Old Hickory
Old Rock
_____________
Only last 3 is suitable for straight razor. JimmyHAD BOUGHT Last 2 available ones .
To get right coticule took me years and i get only 1.
That is why it is not easy to find right coticule for use straight razor.
you have to ask question from seller about your stone.
About Unicot/Dulicot
Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

No one is blocked on my website. We currently don't see the need to monitor or block IP addresses. Everyone is welcome, even to disagree. You're as welcome to drop by as anyone else, Sham. There were some problems with the server on May 1st and 2nd. Maybe that caused your problem.

About the hart of the matter: I bet you all know I disagree with a some of what has been said in this thread. There are many ways and worthy hones to sharpen a razor. Nortons, Naniwa's, Shaptons, Japanese Natural hones, Coticules, Thuringians. They all require a decent honing stroke. Apart from that, each setup has its approach, some closely related, other's more deviating from the current mainstream. I'm writing "current" mainstream, because these things tend to be in motion, as anyone that would care to dig up threads from a few years ago, could find out.

I can only testify the following.

In between August 2009 and today, I have throughly assessed over 50 Coticules. The stones were only selected on size (to allow for razor sharpening) and to come from as many different Coticule layers as I could get my hands on.
I have sharpened a minimum of 3 razors on each of these, each razor test shaved at least half of my face with a WTG and ATG pass, and then some tweaking strokes. About 2/3 of the razors honed, were sent to me for honing. There haven been 2 Coticules of those 50 (both from "La Veine aux CLous"), that could not set a bevel. Maurice of Ardennes warned me up front that they were probably to slow for razors, but I wanted to try anyway. The finishing properties were excellent.
I occasionally score a razor on Ebay, usually in abominable state, because I don't like to spend much. These razors often come with seriously rounded bevels, and it happens that I need to file out my DMT-600 to do in 5 or 10 minutes what would otherwise take me a small hour on a speedy Coticule. But for the razors sent to me, that were mostly dulled beyond touch-up from regular use, I haven't felt the need to visit the DMT-600. I raise slurry once. It takes me in between 15 and 1 minute to set the bevel. (my rule of thumb is that when 10 minutes of work doesn't show the least hint of a bevel being completed, I jump down to something coarser). When the bevel is present, I start the dilution stage. That takes me 4 or 5 minutes, but I imagine it might take someone inexperienced 15 minutes. Finishing takes 30 laps or so.
Should it fail (which it did 9 times out of 10 at my beginning, now about 1 out of 10, I rely on the HHT straight off the hone to decide), it takes another few minutes to tape the spine and take give the razor 20 laps on very thin slurry and 50 on water.

That's how it has been working for me. Is this the easiest way to sharpen a razor? I don't know. I didn't start straight razor shaving because it was the easiest way to shave my beard. It appealed to me for the tradition and artisanship, and so does sharpening with a Coticule. If my ancestors could do it with just that stone, so could I, I figured.

There's this person in Antwerp, who owns a store that sells shaving paraphernalia. For about 20 years, he's hosting shaving courses. There's usually a waiting list. He also uses the Coticule for bevel setting (although he doesn't call it that way). His approach is simple and elegant: he hones on milky slurry till the bevel is ready. (he has some kind of test, watching how the edge undercuts a thin film of water on the hone). Then he finishes the edge on a paddle strop with Dovo red paste. His razors shave well. He recommends to touch-up on the same Dovo red paste. When that fails to restore a good shave, he puts it back on the Coticule.
I didn't follow the course, but I saw him do it, and I own a copy of his manual. I believe his approach sticks close to how razors where sharpened 70-100 years ago.
That Coticules could be used as a finisher as well, is something I picked up on this very website.
The real challenge, in my opinion and experience is getting the right keenness off a Coticule, to unleash its full finishing potential. Setting a bevel on it is not harder than let's say setting a bevel on a 2K synthetic. Finishing on it is not hard at all. Just 30-50 laps (in my opinion). But what's in between those two, that's the part that needs to be mastered, or obtained with help of a good synthetic hone in the 6-10K range. Gary has been reporting great results with his Naniwa 10K for that. And I have good experiences with the Chosera 10K myself. Obviously both these hones have finishing ambitions of there own. I believe it's a matter of personal preference whether someone favors the Coticule finish on top of that. I know I do.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I certainly agree with the personal preference Bart. It would really help if you had more experience with other stones from a comparison standpoint. I have honed a couple thousand razors using the Coticule as a finisher and although it is a nice stone and will work, it has never produced either the best results or the most consistent results for me as a finisher. As far as bevel setting, I have used your method on several hundred razors off of 4 Coticules and an Escher and a Japanese Asagi and can tell you that I cannot find an old wedge with uneven hone wear which is different on both sides that I can get a decent bevel on in 15 minutes. I can't get a bevel started on most in this condition in 15 minutes even with a 220 grit stone. Great that you are having these kind of results. I find your method works best when there is minimal flattening on the spine and will work with some flattening, but again 15 minutes is not something anyone can do and particularly not a new person. The method itself in my opinion is very cool. I also find that I need to tinker with the finish on many razors still when finishing using your method with a Coticule. I am also glad that I own a few Coticules and they are fun to play with.

I admire your undying passion and love for the Coticules and again believe they are a very nice stone. I also believe there are better stones both Natural and Synthetic and look forward to discovering more great stones in the future as I look forward to additional methodologies and discoveries from you.

All the best,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

I certainly agree with the personal preference Bart. It would really help if you had more experience with other stones from a comparison standpoint.

That is a correct remark. I do not own a collection of different honing setups, that's why I will usually refrain from any advice at "which hones do I need to buy" questions. I do own a Chosera 5K and 10K, of which I get excellent results. I also own a Nakayama from Oldschool, that never quite lived up to the high expectations I had for it, until I recently played around with the approach that JimR learned from his barber. From what I read, the Japanese Naturals come in a pretty wide range, so I have no idea if my successes with JimR's method translate to many or few Japanese hones. I've also played with lapping film and with the Dovo pastes.
So far, I've found the results of the Chosera 10K and those of the lapping film (while it lasted for doing tests) to be keener than that of a Coticule, but also keener on blemishing my skin, which probably is as much a matter of technique as a matter of preference and personal skin condition.
The edge I can get of the Nakayama is very good. It adds hint of glide to the shave that resembles that of CrO. Very nice. If I wasn't so passionate about Coticules, I would go for that. Yet when it comes to forgiveness, with my skin, my shaving technique, I still prefer my Coticule edges. It's probably more habit than anything else.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I cannot find an old wedge with uneven hone wear which is different on both sides that I can get a decent bevel on in 15 minutes. I can't get a bevel started on most in this condition in 15 minutes even with a 220 grit stone.

I think we had a misunderstanding in another thread. Of course I can't cut a bevel from scratch in 15 minutes on a Coticule. I wouldn't even think of trying. I only claim that on a razor that dulled from regular use to the point a touch-up no longer restores the initial shaving performance, it's not too difficult to start out on a Coticule. That is the vast majority of honing jobs I do for other people.
I claim that the speed of Coticules with slurry vary somewhere between that of 1K and 4K. 1K being only the very fastest specimen. 4K being the slowest. I base myself on comparison with my DMT-E and the Chosera 5K. Also on testimony of men like Gary, who have more hones to compare to.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Great that you are having these kind of results. I find your method works best when there is minimal flattening on the spine and will work with some flattening, but again 15 minutes is not something anyone can do and particularly not a new person.

I have shared a Youtube video a while ago, with an unedited shot of me honing a Henckels on a (fairly fast) Coticule. The video shows the entire procedure, it lasts a bit over 8 minutes. I wasn't rushing, but will generally do a bit more testing. It is true that it would take someone inexperienced much longer to do the same. It used to take me an hour to hone a razor, often longer.

Originally Posted by Lynn

The method itself in my opinion is very cool. I also find that I need to tinker with the finish on many razors still when finishing using your method with a Coticule. I am also glad that I own a few Coticules and they are fun to play with.

Yes I have exactly the same experience. I have a bit of an arsenal of slight finishing variations on a Coticule, and at times, when my normal 30-50 laps on water fails to deliver that final bit of performance, it's fun to try what will work.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I admire your undying passion and love for the Coticules and again believe they are a very nice stone. I also believe there are better stones both Natural and Synthetic and look forward to discovering more great stones in the future as I look forward to additional methodologies and discoveries from you.

Thank you, I believe we needed to touch base on these "Coticule matters". I know you believe there are better hones. If there's anyone in the world entitled to an educated opinion about quality of hones, it is you, who have such vast experience with razors and hones. I for one could certainly not object to it. I have only been aiming to get the most out of the Belgian hones, and helping out people who have chosen to take that route. I'm currently doing more experimentation on the BBW than on Coticules. That doesn't mean I suddenly started to think they're the nicest hones on the planet.

Kind regards,
Bart.

What the heck did I start? LOL.

Seriously this has turned into a very good post. I agree, very good advice from all spectrums here.

ChrisL, post pics. I don't care at all.

On the coticule thing..it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that really one coticule may not cut it. You will find one you like better for finishing, one better for bevel setting, etc.

Okay, so forgive my ignorance but what the heck is polishing exactly? Is it literally polishing in the sense it makes something shiny? I don't understand.

To whoever that offered me a razor to practice with. I have but one now and when I get myself back to work and get some synthetics I may take you up on this. Thank you for the offer.

That said, I see the Norton set on Amazon for $120.
- Do you need the Norton slurry stone? I've never read of anyone using slurry on a Norton, but I see the stone for sale.

- I am thinking I will need them lapped. How often do they need to be lapped? Is there anyone that offers this service? I don't feel real comfortable doing it myself and I would like to eliminate any negative variable that I could.

Thank you all very much. Until I get other stones I'm going to use the coticule I do have and keep practicing my stroke. Going to try to find videos and more information and practice the different types of strokes, but mainly just get comfortable with the x stroke.

Originally Posted by rickboone

Okay, so forgive my ignorance but what the heck is polishing exactly? Is it literally polishing in the sense it makes something shiny? I don't understand.

Polishing is when you're merely just removing the scratch pattern of the early hones and polishing it out so the edge is sharp but no longer harsh to the skin.
An edge should be shave ready off the 8k but when you move on after that you're just polishing the bevel so the edge shaves still very well but it won't grip your skin and bite as much.

The nortong always need lapping when you buy them new. I would also get a DMT d8c 325 grit plate to lap your stones, it's a very good investment and can also be used to remove chips on razors and restore, etc. Nortons need to be lapped often as they get dirty quickly from removed metal. You will also need to round the sides and corners of the Norton when you get them when lapping them flat, this way the blade doesn't catch on the sides or corners.

Whenever you get a hone in the mail, unless the seller lapped it for you, should be lapped when you get it anyway. Lapping can be found in the wiki. It is actually very easy to do and I wouldn't be too scared of it, it's easier than honing a razor.

I'm a coticule owner and learned how to use one as well with the help of SRP and Bart in particular. All I will add to this thread is this: A lot can be said for learning how to hone (and gaining expertise) with the hones YOU HAVE, as opposed to buying several types, if not entire sets, of different hones. At the learning stage collecting vast sums of hones is not the answer to all a newb's problems; you will not be able to assess a hones position in a progression until you master the ones YOU own

And besides, some people actually enjoy a challenge .

Originally Posted by Disburden

Polishing is when you're merely just removing the scratch pattern of the early hones and polishing it out so the edge is sharp but no longer harsh to the skin.
An edge should be shave ready off the 8k but when you move on after that you're just polishing the bevel so the edge shaves still very well but it won't grip your skin and bite as much.

The nortong always need lapping when you buy them new. I would also get a DMT d8c 325 grit plate to lap your stones, it's a very good investment and can also be used to remove chips on razors and restore, etc. Nortons need to be lapped often as they get dirty quickly from removed metal. You will also need to round the sides and corners of the Norton when you get them when lapping them flat, this way the blade doesn't catch on the sides or corners.

Whenever you get a hone in the mail, unless the seller lapped it for you, should be lapped when you get it anyway. Lapping can be found in the wiki. It is actually very easy to do and I wouldn't be too scared of it, it's easier than honing a razor.

So...up to the 8 K is washing the car and putting a coat of wax on it. Up from that, you're buffing it with the power buffer.

Is a polishing stone and finishing stone one in the same? I know I am asking questions now that have been asked 783492 times and have articles written about them. I am sorry.

You might want to read through this....


Some thoughts on honing razors..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aspiring honers are often not clear about what they are trying to accomplish when it comes to honing razors. In particular, they are often unsure of what they are doing and how often they should be doing it. Some questions you might want to answer for yourself before you start buying hones:

■ Are you an "end-user"; someone who only hones a previously shave-ready blade back to shave-ready?
■ Are you a hobbyist who is chasing the absolute finest edge that may be obtained where money is no object?
■ Are you a frugal shaver who is after the cheapest way to complete your morning shave?
■ Are you a collector who needs to take E-bay specials from butt-ugly to shave-ready?
■ Are you a Honemiester; someone who gets paid to do all of these things for others?
■ Are you a razor restorer who needs to take damaged blades and bring them back to life and shave-readiness?

Each of these types of honer profiles have different requirements for the stones they will own. Theoretically, you can survive using the "one stone" approach, but each razor does have an optimum stone set - and more importantly, a technique for using the required hones. So generally, when somebody asks what stone or how to use what stone, the question to ask them is: "What are you trying to accomplish with the stone(S)?"

Refreshing vs. Starting from Scratch:

The types of hones required depends first and foremost on the type of honing you want to do.

Hones needed for refreshing a dull blade:

If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemiester (the process is often referred to as "touching up"), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.

Hones needed for restoring razors:

If you want to set a bevel, or have many different types of razors, you will need a full set of hones.


A bevel setting stone approximately 1k

DMT's 325 600 1200, Shapton 500, 1K and 2K, Coticules with slurry, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k

A sharpening stone approximately 4k

Norton 4K, Shapton 4K Naniwa 3k or 5k, Belgian Blue with slurry

A polishing stone approximately 8k

Norton 8k, Shapton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Yellow Coticule

A finishing stone 10k and above (this is often subject to debate, however)

Shapton GS 16k-30k Shapton 15k Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 12k, Thuringens, Escher's, Many different natural Japanese finishers, Charlney Forest, Extra Fine Coticule, even some of the Arkansas stones...

You have several choices of how to accomplish this setup whether you use natural, man-made stone, or a Diamond-style stone, but you are going to have to be able to cover those 4 grit ranges. There really is no true shortcut here if you expect to take razors acquired in need of restoration from butter knife dull (or damaged) to shaving sharp: You are going to end up needing these types of stones. This can also be accomplished with the judicious use of a slurry but essentially you are still going through these grit stages...


Pastes can be used after the hones and before the final stropping also these can be used for re-freshing the edge before going back to the hones for a touch-up...

A few different types

Dovo Pastes:

Green 5-8 micron
Red 3-5 micron
Black 1-3 micron
Dovo pastes are a much more mild cutter then say a diamond paste of the same micron size...

Diamond Paste:

From 3 micron down to actually .10 micron if you really wanted to...
These pastes are fast and many people use them incorrectly and manage too get a harsh edge, when used correctly and on the right razor steel these will most likely be the sharpest edge you will ever feel...

Diamond sprays:

Mostly found in 1.0 .50 and .25 micron watch the Carat content here, the higher the better (SRD has the best I have found and yes Lynn and Don are friends of mine, but heck it is still the best spray I have found)

Chromium Oxide Paste/Powder .50 micron (CrOx)
Probably the most universal of the pastes, get the most pure you can find, and no the bars at Woodcrafters are not pure...

Cerium Oxide Paste/Powder (approx).25 micron (CeOx)

Super fine, super soft, and super smooth, polishing media...The bar at Woodcrafter's is of unknown quality at this time

Other Pastes and Powders:

Iron Oxide
Aluminum Oxide

Both of these can also be used again be very careful when buying this stuff as the purity and the micron sizes are very important...

Carbon blacking/lamp black:

This might be the oldest of all the sharpening "pastes" when used on a leather strop it increases draw

Wood Ash:

Another old fashioned one very slightly abrasive when used on Linen strops and Leather strops..

White chalk:

Can be rubbed on a linen strop to increase the abrasive qualities

Newspaper:

The ink itself is a very fine abrasive and so is the paper..

Keep in mind that different razor steels like/dislike different pastes, and the different media that is used to apply it including Balsa, Linen, Leather (paddle) Leather (hanger) and Felt paddle and hanger all give different results on different razor steels....


The above are only my personal opinions and observations... There are no set rules in Razordom...


PS: I did not include Flims as I do not have much knowledge in their use... There are also many other stones that could fit in here But again I haven't even used them once let alone have true knowledge of them so I did not include them

I am going to stick my neck out here a bit. As a new guy who has only been at this about 2 years all I can say is that for someone to use a Coticule to set a bevel you have to be damn good at honing. I think that the skill necessary would surpass most beginners. Bart, Glen, and Lynn are just, plain and simple, legends at this honing game. I could set a bevel with a Coticule but it would use up more time and patience than I have right now.

Speaking only for me! I love my Coticule but it is only one hone in my normal progression. I consider my Coticule about 4K with slurry and 12K with just water. By the time I use my Coticule my bevel is set and able to cut hair readily on my arm. The reason that I use a Coticule is because of the feedback that I get from it and when I am done the edge is very smooth and uniform...and I can both hear and feel that in the stone better than any stone that I have. I then go up, or is it down?, the progression to a 10K, 16K, and then to the 30K before I go to the pastes. My end results are excellent and worth the effort but the time invested is minimal so that I can shave, not hone.


Take care,
Richard