Recommendations on Friodur with a coticle?

Hello there - Now that I have the shaving part consistently under control, I would like to take the plunge and try to hone up a 7/8 Friodur that I recently received. I have limited supplies including i) combination BBW/coticle, ii) barber hone, and iii) Cr2O3 (0.3u) and Fe2O3 (0.1u) pasted balsa.

The bevel looks real decent with a uniform width and scratch pattern and no evidence of microchipping that I can see using a loupe and a Radio Shack special (~60x). Shaves arm hair with some pressure on the blade.

The plan:
Test bevel with magic marker and a few passes on the BBW in water. From there, if things look OK, work on the BBW/water and then move up to the coti w/slurry (or water to be determined), and then possibly to the barber hone and the pasted strop. If the bevel needs more work, I'll try to improve it with the BBW or with the coti/slurry method a la Bart. My inclination is to stay more simple/conventional for now, staying with the BBW for the bevel and the coti/water to improve the edge.

Questions:
I don't have much of a feel for the coticle yet. How does a coti w/slurry compare to a ~4K BBW? Does it make sense to go straight to the coti w/slurry after I'm happy with the bevel? Should I even dispense with all this and try Bart's unicot or dulicot method? :thinking:

I've read a lot about all this, but it would be good to get some distilled information/suggestions here, if possible.
Thanks for any info or recommendations.

Steve

After examing the edge under the magnification I would try popping arm hairs with it without touching the skin. Also the TPT which if you aren't familiar with what a sharp blade will feel like you can learn from a new DE blade if you have any. If the edge won't shave arm hair or feel keen with a TPT I try a TNT. If it grabs well fot the length of the blade I would maybe do some laps on the bbw with slurry using the TPT to check the progress along with seeing if it would pop hair. Then the coticule with water only to finish still using the TPT and the arm hair popping. If it was dull with the TNT I would look to get a 1k naniwa or norton. If you'd rather not get the 1k stone you know where to find Bart's method for doing it all with the coticule.

I haven't used much these hones for some time but, the BBW isn't a coticule with bigger garnets, as far as sharpening razors is concerned. It is a completely different hone in terms of function.
So I'd go the conventional route and use coticule with slurry,then BBW with slurry and then coticule with water. Or skip the BBW altogether for now.

All 4-5 of the friodurs like yours that I had new needed proper bevel. I'll see if I can find a good resolution photograph for you.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

After examing the edge under the magnification I would try popping arm hairs with it without touching the skin. Also the TPT which if you aren't familiar with what a sharp blade will feel like you can learn from a new DE blade if you have any. If the edge won't shave arm hair or feel keen with a TPT I try a TNT. If it grabs well fot the length of the blade I would maybe do some laps on the bbw with slurry using the TPT to check the progress along with seeing if it would pop hair. Then the coticule with water only to finish still using the TPT and the arm hair popping. If it was dull with the TNT I would look to get a 1k naniwa or norton. If you'd rather not get the 1k stone you know where to find Bart's method for doing it all with the coticule.

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JimmyHAD - tell you the truth, I've had a couple of razors honed by some really distinguished guys that do not cut floating arm hair-and forget about the HHT. I must have strong hair or something. :confused: But in spite of that, these razors shave great! So the interactive part, which I'm sure is the most important, is tough. The best way I can judge what is going on is by shaving. The TPT is useful, but only when the edge is 'sticky'; as it becomes more refined, it gets smooth and it's hard to tell what's happening without shaving.

But what you say makes perfect sense. The main thing I'm getting from you is that i) I will likely need to go back to the BBW if it's not shaving well enough right out of the gate, and ii) stick with the coti w/water to refine things. I'm hoping I can get by with the BBW. If not, a Naniwa 1K is the next purchase.

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Originally Posted by gugi

I haven't used much these hones for some time but, the BBW isn't a coticule with bigger garnets, as far as sharpening razors is concerned. It is a completely different hone in terms of function.
So I'd go the conventional route and use coticule with slurry,then BBW with slurry and then coticule with water. Or skip the BBW altogether for now.

All 4-5 of the friodurs like yours that I had new needed proper bevel. I'll see if I can find a good resolution photograph for you.

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Gugi - the stone I have is actually a natural combination stone with the BBW wallrock intruded by a coticle vein. In terms of function, I thought the BBW is supposed to be on the order of ~4K or so (depending...) and the coti ~8K. So, you're saying that the coti with a slurry raised is even more aggressive than the BBW? I can see where this is all about getting to know how this stone works.

Anyway, I'll see what I can see as I go. If I can bring things up with what I've got, then great. If I need to drop back to a 1K and set the bevel, then that will be my next purchase.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

Grit sizes are moot when it comes to natural hones. A Coticule with slurry can be used for everything from setting a bevel in reasonable time to finishing an edge. Mind you, 'can', as in 'some very experienced people can do it'. The BBW is actually of little use when you use the methods described on coticule.be.

Well... You have 2 options, I think.

1) If you have a bevel setter(1kish stone), you can set the bevel. Then use the method in the wiki using a BBW and coticule.

2) Use Barts "dilucot" or "unicot" method.


Every coticule behaves differently though, so you will have to do some experimentation to find the sweet spot.

While learning to hone using a Coticule, I'd recommend the Unicot method. It's much easier to master, but the edge is indiscernible from the dilucot edge IME. Best of luck with your journey :gl:

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Grit sizes are moot when it comes to natural hones. A Coticule with slurry can be used for everything from setting a bevel in reasonable time to finishing an edge. Mind you, 'can', as in 'some very experienced people can do it'. The BBW is actually of little use when you use the methods described on coticule.be.

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Yeah - sure seems that way.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Well... You have 2 options, I think.

1) If you have a bevel setter(1kish stone), you can set the bevel. Then use the method in the wiki using a BBW and coticule.

2) Use Barts "dilucot" or "unicot" method.


Every coticule behaves differently though, so you will have to do some experimentation to find the sweet spot.

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I think for now, I'll try to refine whatever bevel I have with the BBW/slurry and then go to the coti/water. See how it works - reevaluate after that and decide whether to pursue a 1K or go with Bart's methods. Like I said, the existing bevel doesn't look all that bad right now, so who knows...?

Thanks all.
Steve

The 7/8 Friodur's are a fickle, difficult to hone razor. IMHO, the spine is not thick enough to give a proper angle to the bevel for that width of blade.
My solution has been to apply 2 layers of black electrical tape on the spine. This increases the angle and makes for easier honing via a bevel with a smaller width. Hope this makes sense.

Just my $.02,:)

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Originally Posted by Woodash

JimmyHAD - tell you the truth, I've had a couple of razors honed by some really distinguished guys that do not cut floating arm hair-and forget about the HHT.

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Woodash,

I seem to remember, from some time ago, making this same claim to JimmyHAD. I believe his response was that it truly doesn't matter as long as the razor passes YOUR shave test. I'm still greatful to Jimmy for that comment, as it went a long way to comfort my then newb mind. YMMTV (Your mileage may truly vary)!

BTW, and FWIW - I have had many pro-honed razors that will not pass the HHT or cut floating arm hairs before being stropped. Doesn't necessarily mean your razor isn't shave ready

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The 7/8 Friodur's are a fickle, difficult to hone razor. IMHO, the spine is not thick enough to give a proper angle to the bevel for that width of blade.
My solution has been to apply 2 layers of black electrical tape on the spine. This increases the angle and makes for easier honing via a bevel with a smaller width. Hope this makes sense.

Just my $.02,:)

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That's very interesting, Randy. I've never encountered that kind of problem with those razors, but I've only honed 3 of them. Thanks for the heads up.

I got one from Telly from NY a couple of years ago. A 7/8 vintage in great shape and scary sharp. I asked him what he honed it with and he said that it came from a guy in Japan and he didn't know. When it finally needed a bit of TLC I put it on the 15k shapton pro followed by the 30k shapton pro. Back to scary sharp. I wouldn't have thought to use a coticule on it. For stainless I like to use synthetics but I admit I haven't tired naturals with them.

The garnets are harder than stainless steel and have no problem cutting and polishing the bevel to a shave ready sharpness. The BBW (blue belgian 4k) would precede the use of the yellow coticule 8k as it's a coarser stone than the coticule. See whether or not a slurry or just water on the coticule will give you a better edge. Steel type and heat treatment are different for every razor and a little experimentation will inform your shaving.

Hey Howard, long time since you've posted. Good to see you back around. :tu

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I believe his response was that it truly doesn't matter as long as the razor passes YOUR shave test. .....BTW, and FWIW - I have had many pro-honed razors that will not pass the HHT or cut floating arm hairs before being stropped. Doesn't necessarily mean your razor isn't shave ready

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Absolutely - I agree. I don't mean to sound hung up on the HHT because I'm really not. I am only impressed by the shave quality, an fortunately at this point in my shaving career, I have come to know what a good shave/edge feels like. And the razors that I referred to previously were indeed shave ready. I guess I just have fine hair or something...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The 7/8 Friodur's are a fickle, difficult to hone razor. IMHO, the spine is not thick enough to give a proper angle to the bevel for that width of blade.
My solution has been to apply 2 layers of black electrical tape on the spine. This increases the angle and makes for easier honing via a bevel with a smaller width. Hope this makes sense.
Just my $.02,:)

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Thanks - this was interesting and useful information. I checked the spine thickness:razor width on this Friodur and it was 3.75, which may be ~kind of low as you indicate. In any event, I chose to go with one layer of tape, in part because I want to preserve this razor through all of this.

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Originally Posted by Howard

The garnets are harder than stainless steel and have no problem cutting and polishing the bevel to a shave ready sharpness. The BBW (blue belgian 4k) would precede the use of the yellow coticule 8k as it's a coarser stone than the coticule. See whether or not a slurry or just water on the coticule will give you a better edge. Steel type and heat treatment are different for every razor and a little experimentation will inform your shaving.

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Hey Howard - Am I correct in assuming that you're talking about BBW preceeding coti with no slurry involved. Given that the coti w/slurry has been used to set and refine a bevel, I'm wondering if the BBW fits in with the slurry method? I'm not sure which is more aggressive: BBW or coti/slurry (or where BBW/slurry fits in)?

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In any event, here's what I was up to last night:

1) Magic marker test on the existing edge: 2-3 laps on the BBW and it took off all the ink evenly and completely. Shaves arm hair OK. So far, so good; however, I decided to go for one layer of tape and the Dilucot method.

2) After going through the coti w/thicker slurry part, I could see a double bevel taking shape pretty well. The new edge looked pretty good - still OK with the MM, and it did cut arm hair decently.

3) Continued diluting the slurry following Bart's procedure until I was at coti/water. The response of the coticle through the various levels of dilution is pretty amazing. Then 10 laps on a barber hone followed by 10 on Cr2O3/balsa, then stropped on canvas and leather.

I could probably get a shave out of this thing now, but it still needs work. I'm not sure I can get there with just the coti/water and stropping (but I don't know for sure....).

I guess these are my options:

- Re-do the Dilucot method and continue to try to re-set or improve the bevel,
- Continue to try to finish the edge with the coti/water and possibly a higher grit stone,
- Drop back and punt (get a 1K Naniwa, bring it up through the BBW and coti with water, and get some higher grit stone to finish it off),

If I stick with re-doing the Dilucot, should I continue with the compound bevel or keep honing until it replaces the original?

I realize that you all don't have much to go on without seeing what I'm actually working with. I am also coming to appreciate that evaluating what needs to be done and making the (a) correct decision is a large part of learning to hone, but any thoughts that you may have would be appreciated.

Any idears?
Thanks much.

Finishing off on a Coticule can be tricky,,,especially if you want "sharper"...
Coticules by their very nature are self limiting, in fact most people say you can't overhone on them, but that is a double edge sword, because it also isn't as easy to tweak the edge to scary sharp...

As you hone on a Coticule, (especially one that is capable of generating a heavy slurry to do the bevel set), you are creating slurry, with even just the razor and water.. So to overcome to effect of the slurry you need to rinse with every 3rd lap or so... I set my honing tray next to a full sink normally, and do 3 laps dip the razor, 3 laps dip the razor, until I get the edge I want...
To be perfectly honest though, I would never use the Coticule on a Friodur anyway, I only use mine on heavy Sheffield wedges...
But this is the technique I use to get the most out of it...
YMMV of course..

At this point I would want to know what the results are so far. I would perform an arm hair test and a hht then I would strop it for 50 laps and give it a test shave. From that you will start developing a knowledge of what results a given procedure produces.

You do not have to do a full face shave. The first few strokes will answer your questions.

Just my $.02,:)

I've finished a Fridour on synthetics and finished on Asagi. I had no problems with bevel reset and the smoothness to me was same as #13 Double Temple.
@ OP.
If you can get your hands on some synthetic hones give them a try and see if you can get better results with bevel setting and and further.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...As you hone on a Coticule, (especially one that is capable of generating a heavy slurry to do the bevel set), you are creating slurry, with even just the razor and water.. So to overcome to effect of the slurry you need to rinse with every 3rd lap or so... I set my honing tray next to a full sink normally, and do 3 laps dip the razor, 3 laps dip the razor, until I get the edge I want...

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I see what you mean about making sure the coti is optimized for clean water, etc.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

At this point I would want to know what the results are so far. I would perform an arm hair test and a hht then I would strop it for 50 laps and give it a test shave. From that you will start developing a knowledge of what results a given procedure produces.

You do not have to do a full face shave. The first few strokes will answer your questions. Just my $.02,:)

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Ah Ha! You read my mind! I just did do a full face shave and it was not bad at all. There was some pull - not bad, though - but it was more than decent with just WTG and XTG. The razor definately needs some more work, but I'm at least barking up the right tree (or, I haven't flopped it up yet, to put it another way...). I'm starting to get a more tactile sense of which procedures have what effects, as you say. Need more practise...

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I've finished a Fridour on synthetics and finished on Asagi. I had no problems with bevel reset and the smoothness to me was same as #13 Double Temple.
@ OP.
If you can get your hands on some synthetic hones give them a try and see if you can get better results with bevel setting and and further.

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Well Stefan. I would love to do that. How about if I come right down to Blacksburg this weekend if you'll let me check yours out. Funny, I was actually thinking of coming down there this weekend to see old friends and to ride in this big sponsored bike ride that they have every year at this time. Unfortunately, cannot do it this time....

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So - please indulge me with one more question:
The razor needs more work, but does it make sense to try to reset the bevel or try to finish the edge with what I've got (or can get my hands on)? I'm inclined to do the former to try to get that as good as I can. Recall that there is a compound bevel on there now from resetting after taping.

Thanks once again for your thoughts, guys. Very helpful.

I would stay with what you have and try to refine the edge more by using the coti with water only and trying Gssixgun's approach of rinsing frequently.
Your almost home so why go back to first base?

If you plan to be in the area by any means let me know I'll meet you and we will hone.
My take on coticule for beginners from what I know about the dulicot/unicot method is that its not a beginner razor hone. It requires some testing to be able to use your particular coticule properly and that can be time consuming.
My personal opinion get the norton set from amazon lap it nicely to get rid of the cruddy surface layer and have at it with an e-bay special

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I would stay with what you have and try to refine the edge more by using the coti with water only and trying Gssixgun's approach of rinsing frequently.
Your almost home so why go back to first base?

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Well, it's the perfectionist in me. That, plus not really knowing that the bevel is as good as it could be, that the compound bevel is something that I should live with...you know: inexperience!

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Originally Posted by mainaman

If you plan to be in the area by any means let me know I'll meet you and we will hone.
My take on coticule for beginners from what I know about the dulicot/unicot method is that its not a beginner razor hone. It requires some testing to be able to use your particular coticule properly and that can be time consuming.
My personal opinion get the norton set from amazon lap it nicely to get rid of the cruddy surface layer and have at it with an e-bay special

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Sounds good, Stefan. You're right about the coticle. It's extremely dynamic and yet subtle, but man - it sure has a good feel. In any event, I have already learned a lot about honing in general and the coticle in particular just from this exercise.

Steve

BBW with water will do nothing ,Bart has said this in hios threads. Thatv is what i have found. If the razor shaves arm hair well. try coticule with water. If you need to set the bevel and have no 1k stone. You could use your coticule with a good slurry with back and forth strokes. If your slurry does'nt go dark fairly quik ,then your stone may be to slow. If the slurry turns grey rather quikly your coti is fairly good cutter. Once you feel the bevl is set you will have to start diluting method to increase keeness. If the razor does'nt shave to your expectations , go back and either try a progession with paste, or perform unicot by adding one layer of tape , do 20 laps on misty slurry and 50 laps on coti clean water , do nice light laps for this. then test again

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

BBW with water will do nothing ,Bart has said this in hios threads. Thatv is what i have found. If the razor shaves arm hair well. try coticule with water. If you need to set the bevel and have no 1k stone. You could use your coticule with a good slurry with back and forth strokes. If your slurry does'nt go dark fairly quik ,then your stone may be to slow. If the slurry turns grey rather quikly your coti is fairly good cutter. Once you feel the bevl is set you will have to start diluting method to increase keeness. If the razor does'nt shave to your expectations , go back and either try a progession with paste, or perform unicot by adding one layer of tape , do 20 laps on misty slurry and 50 laps on coti clean water , do nice light laps for this. then test again

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Thanks for the input, Gary. I'm still interested in how the BBW fits in here. With water, it does nothing? I thought it was supposed to be ~4K or so. What's the best use of the BBW, then?

In any event, I went back to the drawing board this weekend and reset the bevel with the coticle/slurry. No problem with the hone cutting. Bevel now appears to be set much better - nice and even; uniform reflection the length of the blade; no microchips that I can see (at least with the 60x Radio Shack microscope); and it shaves pretty well (my left arm is bald, now with some stubble coming in...:gaah:). Went through the dilutions and wound up finishing on clean water. The edge was coming together and it is definately a heckuva lot better than what I got an acceptable shave with the other evening. However, I feel like I have gone as far as I can go with the coti and wish I had some other finisher. For now, I'll hit it a few licks on Cr2O3 and strop the heck out of it.

This coticle is really an interesting beast. Kind of like learning to play a musical instrument.

Thanks again, all. :bow

Maybe try using the method in here(Skipping the bevel setting step) if it is close.

A simple honing method with DMT-E, Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki

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Originally Posted by Woodash

Thanks for the input, Gary. I'm still interested in how the BBW fits in here. With water, it does nothing? I thought it was supposed to be ~4K or so. What's the best use of the BBW, then?

In any event, I went back to the drawing board this weekend and reset the bevel with the coticle/slurry. No problem with the hone cutting. Bevel now appears to be set much better - nice and even; uniform reflection the length of the blade; no microchips that I can see (at least with the 60x Radio Shack microscope); and it shaves pretty well (my left arm is bald, now with some stubble coming in...:gaah:). Went through the dilutions and wound up finishing on clean water. The edge was coming together and it is definately a heckuva lot better than what I got an acceptable shave with the other evening. However, I feel like I have gone as far as I can go with the coti and wish I had some other finisher. For now, I'll hit it a few licks on Cr2O3 and strop the heck out of it.

This coticle is really an interesting beast. Kind of like learning to play a musical instrument.

Thanks again, all. :bow

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you will get a great shave of dilucot method. If your not then you have lossed the keeness som where . I would go back to a fine slurry and start agian and see if it improves. BBw with milky slurry will reach more keeness than yellow coticule with slurry,Bart says this. which is true. So you can set bevel on yellow then move to very milky slurry on blue untill it maxes out and then finish on yellow with water to polish. I don't use blue at all . i only use yellow. If cr.ox does'nt improve you will need to go back to dilucot. also you need to strop on canvas 60/60 leather. One paste that will work and i no because i use it . that is TI rasoir paste on canvas strop . use after coticule with 10 to 30 laps and you will see the differance straight away.

Hello there - I'm back..... :gaah:

Here's where I'm at: I initially went through the dilucot method and the bevel seemed pretty decent. Shaved arm hair really well after the thick slurry and then I went through the dilutions to increase sharpness, eventually finishing on clear water. Things seemed OK, and I got an 'acceptable' shave. I would like it better, though.

Next, I dropped back and took the advice of Slartibartfest and Gary Haywood to try to bring up the keeness with BBW and milky slurry, finishing with clean water on coticle, Cr2O3, and 100 laps on leather. The edge improved, but the shave was pretty much the same. It was decent (close shave after 3 passes; no major pulling, but definately required more touch up passes resulting in some razor burn).

So, what do you think? Back to the BBW/slurry? Is it possible to really blow the edge with stropping? Any other suggestions?

Sorry to be a pain here, but I would love to get this thing right, if possible. I like the feel of this razor a lot, and I really like the whole coticle vibe as well. Thx once again for all the help.

Woodash/Steve

Make sure your coticule is good enough for straight razors . coticules are natural stones and their quality differ a lot. if you don't have a good quality coticule doesn't matter what you do you will not get what you are looking for.
gl

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Make sure your coticule is good enough for straight razors . coticules are natural stones and their quality differ a lot. if you don't have a good quality coticule doesn't matter what you do you will not get what you are looking for.
gl

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Thanks. I got this from a very reliable source. It's lapped/beveled appropriately, and I can see what/how it's cutting with various dilutions. I am confident that it must be operator inexperience....