Thread: A question..

Yes, yet another!

I bought a razor from a gentleman that, by all accounts knows what he is doing. I did not buy it through any of the forums, but this gentleman has been around. The razor was advertised as "Shave ready."
Now, I'm certainly no honemeister and I've only got twenty straight razor shaves under my belt, but I worked my career as a Tool & Die Maker, so I'm not totally clueless either. I have honed a few razors and turned them into great shavers.
I tried to shave with said razor. It shaved alright, but not close and not smooth. Lot's of irritation on my neck.
I tried a little honing myself, because the razor would not shave arm hair.
Shaved with it again... Same thing.
But, I noticed something while honing... The razor would complete it's stroke very smoothly in one direction, but always on the return stroke, it would seem to drag, and would build up lots of metal on one edge of the hone. If I flipped the hone end for end, the other edge would clog with steel, so it's the heel of the razor on the back side causing the problem.
I've been thinking and thinking about this. I took a straightedge to the spine on both sides... Nice and flat both ways.. Finally grabbed a stone (not for honing) and ran it along the flat of the tang up onto the spine. AHAH... it caught a nick... A very slight ding nearly invisible to the eye. Looks as though it had possibly been dropped on the spine.
Now, two things surprise me. One, that heat treated steel as hard as I thought these were will still take a dent, and Two, that a shave ready edge could be put on this razor without noticing this tiny flaw.
Now, I'm not blaming anyone, or at all annoyed that this all occurred.. It's all part of the learning process for me... Payin' my dues, so to speak.
Now the questions...
Could this tiny flaw keep the razor from being honed to a smooth shaving edge?
At this point, should I attempt to rehone myself or send it to a Pro for a solution once and for all.
If I attempt to rehone, should I dull the razor a hair and start again from the 2K level? At this point, it will cut a few arm hairs, but will not shave whatever is in it's path...

Thanks once again for the help...

Does this nick on the spine protrude so that it lifts the spine slightly at the point where the dent is ? If you have magnification check out the edge and see what it looks like up close. I would suggest trying an 8k for a bit and if that doesn't improve it go to the 4k and do 4/8 pyramids. I wouldn't dull it purposely at this point and I would try a fix at the higher grits before starting from scratch with setting the bevel again. I wouldn't send it out unless I couldn't get it myself.

Yes Jimmy, The nick was lifting the spine ever so slightly, and that is also why the edge of the hone was also becoming fouled with so much steel. It felt as though it was catching, until the X stroke would take that area of the spine off the hone.
Could such a small imperfection prevent this razor from taking a shave ready edge, or am I just overthinking this?

And, thanks once again for the help!

Have you asked how the razor was honed? Tape or not?
If tape has been used it could be that the problem was not as evident, and may be even that mislead the person that honed the razor?
If the nick is very small it could be possible to smooth it out with fine sand paper or on a lower grit stone, but very carefully, then hone it all the way. The sandpaper fix could very well change the aesthetics of the blade though.

Originally Posted by BlacknTan

Could such a small imperfection prevent this razor from taking a shave ready edge, or am I just overthinking this?

It wouldn't do it any good. I would get rid of the protrusion. You could do it on a coarser stone with the edge off the stone and just focus on the spine anomaly. Then try the 4/8 pyramid and see what you end up with. If necessary you can always drop back and go to the bevel setters doing circles and go up from there.

The ding on the spine is smooth, Jimmy. I smoothed that out as soon as I found it. The spine is nice and flat now.
Using a 10X loupe, there seems to be microchipping (I assume?) on the edge near the heel. I suppose that would be consistent with the placement of the flaw on the spine, at the heel end directly above the radius on the edge side..

I'll rework the edge as you suggest... on Saturday when my wife goes to work. I find I need total concentration with no interruptions when I'm working with the hones..

Originally Posted by mainaman

Have you asked how the razor was honed? Tape or not?
If tape has been used it could be that the problem was not as evident, and may be even that mislead the person that honed the razor?
If the nick is very small it could be possible to smooth it out with fine sand paper or on a lower grit stone, but very carefully, then hone it all the way. The sandpaper fix could very well change the aesthetics of the blade though.

That's an interesting point, Stefan, and one that I had not thought of..
You're quite right, I imagine that a layer of tape could have made the imperfection virtually unnoticable while honing.
The spine has been lightly stoned to the flat of the tang, and the razor looks as good as it did before stoning.

Thanks for the good advice!

The razor should shave arm hair if it was advertised as "shave ready". The ding on the spine will definitely throw off the honing and must be removed. As a tool & die guy, you know what to do! It's the same set of skills for die grinding.

The heat treatment. The heat treatment of these razors may not be as even as one might think. I've honed lots of razors where I could feel a different bite of the stone on different parts of the razor. I spoke to a metallurgist about it and he said that steels aren't consistent from batch to batch and not even always consistent in the same batch. Add heat treating onto that and you can see how variable the outcome can be at times.

Fixing it. First thing I'd recommend doing is looking at the whole razor under at least 60x magnification - heel to toe on both sides and the spine as well. You have to be able to see what's wrong in order to fix it. You may not have to go as coarse as 2k after you see what you've got for an edge. I often start at 4k if the bevel is good and the edge is decent. I really believe that the least amount of honing is best in the long run. Do what's necessary to get the job done.

Originally Posted by BlacknTan

Yes, yet another!

I bought a razor from a gentleman that, by all accounts knows what he is doing. I did not buy it through any of the forums, but this gentleman has been around. The razor was advertised as "Shave ready."
Now, I'm certainly no honemeister and I've only got twenty straight razor shaves under my belt, but I worked my career as a Tool & Die Maker, so I'm not totally clueless either. I have honed a few razors and turned them into great shavers.
I tried to shave with said razor. It shaved alright, but not close and not smooth. Lot's of irritation on my neck.
I tried a little honing myself, because the razor would not shave arm hair.
Shaved with it again... Same thing.
But, I noticed something while honing... The razor would complete it's stroke very smoothly in one direction, but always on the return stroke, it would seem to drag, and would build up lots of metal on one edge of the hone. If I flipped the hone end for end, the other edge would clog with steel, so it's the heel of the razor on the back side causing the problem.
I've been thinking and thinking about this. I took a straightedge to the spine on both sides... Nice and flat both ways.. Finally grabbed a stone (not for honing) and ran it along the flat of the tang up onto the spine. AHAH... it caught a nick... A very slight ding nearly invisible to the eye. Looks as though it had possibly been dropped on the spine.
Now, two things surprise me. One, that heat treated steel as hard as I thought these were will still take a dent, and Two, that a shave ready edge could be put on this razor without noticing this tiny flaw.
Now, I'm not blaming anyone, or at all annoyed that this all occurred.. It's all part of the learning process for me... Payin' my dues, so to speak.
Now the questions...
Could this tiny flaw keep the razor from being honed to a smooth shaving edge?
At this point, should I attempt to rehone myself or send it to a Pro for a solution once and for all.
If I attempt to rehone, should I dull the razor a hair and start again from the 2K level? At this point, it will cut a few arm hairs, but will not shave whatever is in it's path...

Thanks once again for the help...

Originally Posted by BlacknTan

The razor would complete it's stroke very smoothly in one direction, but always on the return stroke, it would seem to drag, and would build up lots of metal on one edge of the hone. If I flipped the hone end for end, the other edge would clog with steel, so it's the heel of the razor on the back side causing the problem.

This problem is coming up sometimes. It is not a big problem. Your blade has warping how bad i don't know. what happen who honed the blade left the spine up while did hone that portion of the blade. As a result when you put your blade flat on the hone and make strokes that black color metal comes out of from the back(spine) of the blade. Edge is not touching the stone.This doesn't mean edge is dull . who did job may be did sharpen that edge.(i can't speculate .

At this point, should I attempt to rehone myself or send it to a Pro for a solution once and for all.

Please contact the person who honed your Blade. This should be your first response.
if he refuses etc the One of srp member will help you out including myself.Proper to handle this problem you should act like that.

..

hope this helps.

Well, I went back to the 5K today. Circles and X strokes until I could shave arm hair.
Things are much improved, but the ding in the spine is not the total problem. Sham may be right that the spine is not perfectly true, but without a dial indicator here at home, I can't tell. I did get out the old Etalon mike, and the spine is within .003" thickness it's entire length.
But, I'd say today's work on the 5K was a total success. I do not see any more chipping on the edge, and things look clean and smooth. I have to brush all the arm hairs away after a pass over my arm, so i think this time things will improve greatly.
I'll do some work with the 8K and 12K tomorrow, or maybe a few conservative pyramids. I'm thinking things will be much better.... The next shave will tell the tale.

If not... Off to a Pro who really knows what he is doing... unlike me, who's still feeling his way along..

More to come in a few days.