Thread: A newbie perspective on coticules

Originally Posted by Ryan82

Sham insinuates that members may have "bad" coticules quite frequently (or, as he puts it, coticules that are not suitable for straight razors), leading me to believe that if he continues to raise the same question over and over again then he must have had some valid reason to do so.

Absolutely. Let me use an analogy: "One wrong way driver? Hundreds!" Mystery solved, case closed, on with the honing.

Just to back up Ryan, I have seen posts by Sham where he stated that he has had many .... a very large number .... of coticules, and IIRC ,only three have been excellent razor hones. Like Ryan and Gary I have been lucky in that regard and in the 20 or so I have or have had I've yet to get one that wasn't satisfactory for honing razors. Some have been better than others so I can vouch for there being variation between them.

Matter of fact the best one I have is an 8x3 natural that TheTopher (former member) bought from Howard. Of course it was harvested a few years ago by Rob at Ardennes. Chris (TheTopher) told me that it was "alright" and would get a razor sharp but not to the level of sharpness that he was used to. He called it scary sharp and preferred his 16k shapton edges. I bought that coticule from him and love the shaves from the edges it provides.

So not putting words in Sham's mouth and then quoting him, but I bet that when he says that he has run into a lot of 'bad' coticules it is just that they aren't bringing edges up to the sharpness that he prefers. IOW, someone else might find the same stones perfectly good.

I would really hate to think that SRP is thought of as pro synthetic in a context that means we are not fond of our natural stones. I finished with a Coticule for a couple years until I got an Escher which in my opinion produced better results. I still think the Coticule is a fine stone and very much fun to play around with since Bart came up with the one hone method using a variance of slurry consistency. I am also quite fond of my Japanese Naturals (Asagi, Kiita and Ohzuku) and find the finishing results from them to be better than the Coticule too. My biggest problem in honing as much as I do, was that the Coticule was not as consistent for me on a daily basis. What I mean here is that I sit down every day and hone a minimum of a dozen razors and I like for them all to be perfect first time through. My experience has shown me that the chances of this happening with either sythetics or my Escher, Asagi or Ohzuku is greater than with the Coticule.

As pointed out earlier, if you are just honing a few razors for you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Coticule and you can tinker with it and get a very respectable edge. If it is not perfect first time through, you can do another 5 strokes or 3-5 strokes once or twice and usually get it there.

The reason I like to teach new people on the Norton, Naniwa's or Shapton's is that they are very consistent and I think a new person can pick up the art as quickly as they can master the stroke and pressure. This goes for either circles or pyramids. As Robin pointed out there are people doing a variety of techniques out there and most are variations of techniques that already exist and that fit the preference of the person. I am hopeful that people will continue to improve on the current techniques and continue to make it easier for people to maintain their own razors. That to me is what this sport is all about.

Thanks guys,

Lynn

Originally Posted by heirkb

When you were new to honing, did you try hones like Naniwas or Nortons? I know you have now, but did you then?
I think that would add more context to your perspective.

And you're right, it varies for a lot of people. I'm just letting people know that if they find it hard to use a coticule as an all-purpose hone, they shouldn't be surprised. If you know your simple x strokes and circles, I'd guess that Naniwas would be easier hones to use that would also take less time. And in the end, that's just my guess based on the little I've tried

My first honing setup was the Norton 220-1K-4K-8K, soon accompanied by a Guangxi. I struggled with these, but I had no mentoring other than the Wiki info and some videos.

For me, Bart's Unicot instructions were my most important tutorial. Maybe I should have appreciated that a bevel is not set until arm hair can be shaved, but I didn't get that until then. I was really lost when it came to when exactly to progress to the next finer hone (either by switching up the stone or diluting the slurry), and Bart's strict "30 on this, 30 on that, 50 on the next" instructions gave me the specificity I needed, and helped me hone my first shave-ready blade, which of course is a great confidence-builder for a newbie. His suggestion to create a double bevel helped me to visualize and understand for the first time exactly what I was trying to do with the bevel, and appreciate the multiple factors that go into sharpening a razor. Maybe it was just "time" for me to get it, and it would have happened if I'd just stuck with the Nortons a little longer -- hard to say.

Another thing worth mentioning, but which may be peculiar to me and the other Belgian stone lovers out there, is the beauty of these stones and the fact they are natural products. I remember sitting with my first coti-BBW natural combo and staring at it, touching it, admiring the grain, imagining the millions of years that went into it's creation, etc., for over an hour. To me it was a totem, a holy object, and still is. I always feel it is an honor for me to posess and use such a stone, and I take pride in using it well.

All this said, there is a place for synthetics, and I routinely use them -- now that I understand what I am trying to do, and how to judge my progress -- at least through the edge repair and initial bevel establishment. After that, though, it's naturals for me: Coti, BBW, Guangxi, Asagi, Kiita.

I have no argument with the idea of recommending Naniwas to newcomers. If I had it to do over, I might go that route myself. But one could do worse than begin one's honing career slavishly following Bart's instructions until the golden door of enlightenment swings open.

Just a thought here, it all comes down to the hand of the honer and the face of the shaver. I think of a saying I use in golf...."It's not how, it's how many" On that note, it's not what you hone on, it's how it shaves for you. I love the shave I get off Sbrouwers coti and I've had blades honed off Nortons, the C12K, from Lynn, from KenRup etc etc etc. What works for might is.........what works for me. I've gotten great results of a coti even only having having honed a small hand full of razors. I guess to sum it all up, to each his own. Cheers and great smooth shaves to all .

A "bad" coticule.... yes, they exist, I have seen 2 of them in person and used them. They are grey with white "flecks/streaks" and are very coarse, perhaps a 1K, but I did not test them for that function. They simply tore up an 8K edge. The last one I came across was about 8 months ago. These were both owned by others. I also have a coticule that is not nearly as coarse as the grey ones but is still much to coarse to use as a finisher. More like a 5-6K grit. Its color is a normal "cream/tan" but with some "reddish" streaks/tints/colors. I also had another small coticule that was not suitable as a finisher. I cut it up and used it for slurry stones.

Yes, natural stones do vary. Sometimes a lot!

Hope this helps to clear things up a bit,

I struggled with the coticle about the same as I struggled with learning to shave well, no more, no less. Neither happened overnight, but both are definitely doable – even for beginners – if that’s what they choose.

Seems like the overriding theme of this thread is to caution new users about investing too heavily or exclusively in the coticle. We can all give our input to help a beginner make an informed decision about what he should or can use initially, but in the end everybody’s different, and everyone will go the direction that calls to them the loudest.

I happen to really like the coticle for a ton of reasons, and while I do have interest in some other hones to complement it, I don’t see myself giving it up to go a more ‘conventional’ route. But that’s me….

Originally Posted by pcb01

Another thing worth mentioning, but which may be peculiar to me and the other Belgian stone lovers out there, is the beauty of these stones and the fact they are natural products. I remember sitting with my first coti-BBW natural combo and staring at it, touching it, admiring the grain, imagining the millions of years that went into it's creation, etc., for over an hour. To me it was a totem, a holy object, and still is. I always feel it is an honor for me to posess and use such a stone, and I take pride in using it well.

All this said, there is a place for synthetics,

Well said.

With synthetics we have a constant that can be discussed with a certain knowing making it easier to get online help.

Natural stones are more like children. They are not here for us. They are here for themselves and for their own purposes. However we can use them to mow the lawn or set out the garbage while they are with us.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to be missing the point the original poster seemed to be making, From what I understand he was telling his experience and telling other Newb's that they might wan't to think twice before investing in this method. I for One am glad I went with the Naniwa hones and I haven't even had a chance to use them yet ( Got two in the mail and waiting for the other two ). The reason I say this is the cost of 1 Coticule Stones from what Iv'e seen can be equal or more than what I spent on 4 naniwa super stones. A 1,4,8 and 12k setup. And from most of what I've read the Naniwa's should be easer to learn on because of the consistency of the hones. From a financial stand point this seems to make sense to me. Because most of what I reading is that people that love the Coticule Stones don't use ONE stone and only one stone. altho I also think that some of the natural stones are beautiful and there is an allure to using something natural, Being on a budget I simply am not ready to invest in an uncertain result of that natural stones as a beginner in honing and will wait till I have the money to play with. If I where wealthy I might do things different.
But like many have said to each his own.

If i was honing a dozen razoprs a day it would have to be nortons /naniwas etc. As i don't i don't mind using one of my coticules. I rebuild bevels with 325/600/1k naniwa. I have just been using .5 diamond spray with modular paddle at the end of my coticule honing with just 5 laps on .5, 0.25,5 laps on cr.ox. The shaves have been spot on smooth and not harsh at all, i found this gaurantees a shave ready edge first time round with out tinkering on the coticule. which in efect saves time and test shaves.