Thread: A newbie perspective on coticules

Do NOT take this as a reflection of the quality of coticules. The reason I'm writing this is that a lot of experts give their perspectives on coticules and recommend them as great hones, and I just wanted to share what I've experienced with honing on my 2 coticules. It would have been valuable for me as a newb to have heard other newbies talking about them, so maybe it will be for other newbs, too.

So, I have a 6x2 Dressante, a 7x1.5 vintage coticule, and a slurry stone. Even though I was new to x-strokes, I actually found the thinner stones to be quite nice. They actually made up for my uneven pressure by forcing me to hone more off the edge of the hone (by doing an x) so that all the blade got contact with the stone.

Now here's what I have really come to think as a result of my experiences and my discussions with others: coticules are NOT a great do-it-all hone for newbies. Maybe they're great finishers, but I wouldn't know since I spent my money on my Dressante as my only hone and couldn't afford other hones to use in a progression before my coticule (except a Naniwa 1k). Here's why I think they're not great as a do-it-all for newbies:

-Whether I tried unicot or dilucot, it was very difficult to determine when/how to dilute.
-I diluted slowly and quickly all the way in tons of different honing session and always came up with bad results.
-I tried pressure, no pressure, pressure at different stages and couldn't figure out what the hell to do.

What it boils down to for me is that using a coticule as my only hone was very confusing, because I was (am) never sure when to move on, or what to look for in the edge in the different "stages" of honing. I can't really call them stages, cause they weren't discrete.

I recently tried honing on Naniwas (Chosera 1k, superstone 5k & 8k) and got great results (for my face) on multiple razors with almost no effort. What seems to be true is that Naniwas are just a lot easier. I had discrete stages and discrete things to look for in my edges at each stage. This was very very helpful since I was (am) new to honing.


This is of course due to my ineptitude with honing, but that's the definition of a newb. I didn't start straight shaving with a 10/8 spike point blade with a 3.25" blade, and that was also due to a lack of skill. Nobody would recommend shaving with a monster on your first straight shave, and I would compare unicot/dilucot honing with that based on my experiences with it. I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.
I'm just writing this for other newbs who also have this illusion. If you want to start honing with a very difficult introduction, you can. I know people who started with just one coticule and learned to use them successfully. But if you're looking for the easiest and most consistent way to hone, then I recommend Naniwas...

And before twenty people ask, yes my hones were flat. Yes the edges were chamfered...again, the point is that as someone very inexperienced with honing, all else being equal, coticule unicot/dilucot honing was much much harder for me than honing on Naniwas. You experienced guys probably know this, but maybe there are some newer inexperienced people who would benefit from reading this

I struggled with honing until I came across Bart's instructions.

I successfully used his Unicot method to start. I've modified it, incorporated the Dilucot process, and now kind of "Freebird" the whole thing, using all kinds of hones and stones (Carborundums, Nortons, coticules, BBWs, J-nats).

My point is, that coticules were my entry to getting the honing thing under control. So I would have to disagree with the OP. I think it is a great start for new honers. And you can, in fact, use most coticules to set a bevel, refine an edge, and finish it to shave-ready status.

AA, YMMV.

Originally Posted by pcb01

I struggled with honing until I came across Bart's instructions.

I successfully used his Unicot method to start. I've modified it, incorporated the Dilucot process, and now kind of "Freebird" the whole thing, using all kinds of hones and stones (Carborundums, Nortons, coticules, BBWs, J-nats).

My point is, that coticules were my entry to getting the honing thing under control. So I would have to disagree with the OP. I think it is a great start for new honers. And you can, in fact, use most coticules to set a bevel, refine an edge, and finish it to shave-ready status.

AA, YMMV.

When you were new to honing, did you try hones like Naniwas or Nortons? I know you have now, but did you then?
I think that would add more context to your perspective.

And you're right, it varies for a lot of people. I'm just letting people know that if they find it hard to use a coticule as an all-purpose hone, they shouldn't be surprised. If you know your simple x strokes and circles, I'd guess that Naniwas would be easier hones to use that would also take less time. And in the end, that's just my guess based on the little I've tried

Originally Posted by heirkb

Do NOT take this as a reflection of the quality of coticules. The reason I'm writing this is that a lot of experts give their perspectives on coticules and recommend them as great hones, and I just wanted to share what I've experienced with honing on my 2 coticules. It would have been valuable for me as a newb to have heard other newbies talking about them, so maybe it will be for other newbs, too.

So, I have a 6x2 Dressante, a 7x1.5 vintage coticule, and a slurry stone. Even though I was new to x-strokes, I actually found the thinner stones to be quite nice. They actually made up for my uneven pressure by forcing me to hone more off the edge of the hone (by doing an x) so that all the blade got contact with the stone.

Now here's what I have really come to think as a result of my experiences and my discussions with others: coticules are NOT a great do-it-all hone for newbies. Maybe they're great finishers, but I wouldn't know since I spent my money on my Dressante as my only hone and couldn't afford other hones to use in a progression before my coticule (except a Naniwa 1k). Here's why I think they're not great as a do-it-all for newbies:

-Whether I tried unicot or dilucot, it was very difficult to determine when/how to dilute.
-I diluted slowly and quickly all the way in tons of different honing session and always came up with bad results.
-I tried pressure, no pressure, pressure at different stages and couldn't figure out what the hell to do.

What it boils down to for me is that using a coticule as my only hone was very confusing, because I was (am) never sure when to move on, or what to look for in the edge in the different "stages" of honing. I can't really call them stages, cause they weren't discrete.

I recently tried honing on Naniwas (Chosera 1k, superstone 5k & 8k) and got great results (for my face) on multiple razors with almost no effort. What seems to be true is that Naniwas are just a lot easier. I had discrete stages and discrete things to look for in my edges at each stage. This was very very helpful since I was (am) new to honing.


This is of course due to my ineptitude with honing, but that's the definition of a newb. I didn't start straight shaving with a 10/8 spike point blade with a 3.25" blade, and that was also due to a lack of skill. Nobody would recommend shaving with a monster on your first straight shave, and I would compare unicot/dilucot honing with that based on my experiences with it. I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.
I'm just writing this for other newbs who also have this illusion. If you want to start honing with a very difficult introduction, you can. I know people who started with just one coticule and learned to use them successfully. But if you're looking for the easiest and most consistent way to hone, then I recommend Naniwas...

And before twenty people ask, yes my hones were flat. Yes the edges were chamfered...again, the point is that as someone very inexperienced with honing, all else being equal, coticule unicot/dilucot honing was much much harder for me than honing on Naniwas. You experienced guys probably know this, but maybe there are some newer inexperienced people who would benefit from reading this

Thank you for letting people to know your experience.
This is why Some People always recommend for newbies to use Norton or Naniwa's etc.
it will help them learn easier and not to struggle.
when you get better at honing then you can go back again to your coticules and play around. Every single natural hones takes time to learn .
gl

Originally Posted by heirkb

I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.

Actually, it is not. I think you will be hard pressed to find any experienced honer here on this site saying that Coticules are easy-to-use, all-purpose beginner hones. The FAQ links to What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki and that is really it. There is a good reason why a grit succession of synthetic hones is recommended for beginners. That said, I am certainly not experienced, and still managed to get a decent (not great, but perfectly serviceable) edge on my new Henckeli with only a Coticule. So, yes, it can be done, but the learning curve is much steeper.

To sum this up, you made an honest mistake by mis-interpreting the information available, but that does not invalidate the usefulness of the tool per se.

Thank you for sharing your experience with coticules Heirkb. Many of us here have been trying to pass this info on and one more voice in the chorus is welcome. Coticules are hones for experienced honing as you have discovered. Most honing techniques depend on observing the 'signs' of your progress. Thee signs are very subtle with coticules as a one hone method and are easily over looked by people new and experienced in honing. With Norton and Naniwa hones the signs are just a little more obvious. Good luck in your journey!

i'm a newby at honing too and have only a coticule
and i have to say that it can be done giving the results i get now.
the shaves aren't what they should be but i have the feeling with a little practice it will be very good.
it will even become easier as you take "To all aspiring razor sharpeners" course from Bart

regards
Stijn

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Thank you for letting people to know your experience.
This is why Some People always recommend for newbies to use Norton or Naniwa's etc.
it will help them learn easier and not to struggle.
when you get better at honing then you can go back again to your coticules and play around. Every single natural hones takes time to learn .
gl

+1 this is my opinion on this too. Not that you can't learn on a coticule but a faster stone isn't as frustrating in the beginning. Double edged sword because you can get sharp faster or mess things up faster but a Naniwa series or Norton is better in the beginning IME. Coticules are great once you have the fundamentals down and some experience under your belt.

It is possible that the OP just has bunk coticules, or at the very least ones that are not suited to to the work he wants to accomplish

I only have one coticule, it was my first hone and it's the only one I've ever tried but it works for want I need it to do.

It's exactly like SR shaving, for every newb that says he had a great first shave there are 5 others saying it was awful. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

It is possible that the OP just has bunk coticules, or at the very least ones that are not suited to to the work he wants to accomplish

First, no offense to my friend Ryan, you just happened to post a very relevant point...

Therein lies the root of the problem, hence the huge blow up in the original Coticule threads, mostly precipitated by some of the most experienced Honemeisters on this forum...

Using a natural hone, is a variable in itself, then you have the slurry as another variable, then the dilution of the slurry as a third variable...

This is why many of us said this wasn't such a great idea for beginners to use,, It had nothing to do with the like or dislike of the stone or the system that was purposed for using the stone...We had nothing but good to say about the whole thing, right up until Bart purposed that newbies could do it,,, That is when things changed, and as we are now seeing more and more of these types of threads it looks as though we were right..
The other thing I am noticing is that many of you that started off with just using one stone, have started adding a low grit cutter just like we told you was going to be needed... Some of you have actually added a second Coticule (a fast cutter) so the other reason (only one stone) that was the huge attraction of the stone in the first place is being set aside too...

Please don't think I am saying this one stone system can't be used in fact it can be used on any stone that is capable of producing a slurry and can finish anywhere near 8k or better... Sham did it with a Japanese natural, I did it with a Norton 8k and IIRC it was Lynn that did it with an Escher I bet a Chinese can be used too if you wanted to take the time...

Again just like some of us have always said, every single variable you toss into the honing path has to be overcome, more variables, makes for a much steeper learning curve, so really it all boils down to how big a hill do you want to climb????
I guess there could be some satisfaction just in the pride of knowing you climbed a steep hill, which is some of what I am reading now... or perhaps, you just got lucky with buying a good Coticule

JMHO of what I am reading...