A newbie perspective on coticules

Do NOT take this as a reflection of the quality of coticules. The reason I'm writing this is that a lot of experts give their perspectives on coticules and recommend them as great hones, and I just wanted to share what I've experienced with honing on my 2 coticules. It would have been valuable for me as a newb to have heard other newbies talking about them, so maybe it will be for other newbs, too.

So, I have a 6x2 Dressante, a 7x1.5 vintage coticule, and a slurry stone. Even though I was new to x-strokes, I actually found the thinner stones to be quite nice. They actually made up for my uneven pressure by forcing me to hone more off the edge of the hone (by doing an x) so that all the blade got contact with the stone.

Now here's what I have really come to think as a result of my experiences and my discussions with others: coticules are NOT a great do-it-all hone for newbies. Maybe they're great finishers, but I wouldn't know since I spent my money on my Dressante as my only hone and couldn't afford other hones to use in a progression before my coticule (except a Naniwa 1k). Here's why I think they're not great as a do-it-all for newbies:

-Whether I tried unicot or dilucot, it was very difficult to determine when/how to dilute.
-I diluted slowly and quickly all the way in tons of different honing session and always came up with bad results.
-I tried pressure, no pressure, pressure at different stages and couldn't figure out what the hell to do.

What it boils down to for me is that using a coticule as my only hone was very confusing, because I was (am) never sure when to move on, or what to look for in the edge in the different "stages" of honing. I can't really call them stages, cause they weren't discrete.

I recently tried honing on Naniwas (Chosera 1k, superstone 5k & 8k) and got great results (for my face) on multiple razors with almost no effort. What seems to be true is that Naniwas are just a lot easier. I had discrete stages and discrete things to look for in my edges at each stage. This was very very helpful since I was (am) new to honing.


This is of course due to my ineptitude with honing, but that's the definition of a newb. I didn't start straight shaving with a 10/8 spike point blade with a 3.25" blade, and that was also due to a lack of skill. Nobody would recommend shaving with a monster on your first straight shave, and I would compare unicot/dilucot honing with that based on my experiences with it. I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.
I'm just writing this for other newbs who also have this illusion. If you want to start honing with a very difficult introduction, you can. I know people who started with just one coticule and learned to use them successfully. But if you're looking for the easiest and most consistent way to hone, then I recommend Naniwas...

And before twenty people ask, yes my hones were flat. Yes the edges were chamfered...again, the point is that as someone very inexperienced with honing, all else being equal, coticule unicot/dilucot honing was much much harder for me than honing on Naniwas. You experienced guys probably know this, but maybe there are some newer inexperienced people who would benefit from reading this

I struggled with honing until I came across Bart's instructions.

I successfully used his Unicot method to start. I've modified it, incorporated the Dilucot process, and now kind of "Freebird" the whole thing, using all kinds of hones and stones (Carborundums, Nortons, coticules, BBWs, J-nats).

My point is, that coticules were my entry to getting the honing thing under control. So I would have to disagree with the OP. I think it is a great start for new honers. And you can, in fact, use most coticules to set a bevel, refine an edge, and finish it to shave-ready status.

AA, YMMV.

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Originally Posted by pcb01

I struggled with honing until I came across Bart's instructions.

I successfully used his Unicot method to start. I've modified it, incorporated the Dilucot process, and now kind of "Freebird" the whole thing, using all kinds of hones and stones (Carborundums, Nortons, coticules, BBWs, J-nats).

My point is, that coticules were my entry to getting the honing thing under control. So I would have to disagree with the OP. I think it is a great start for new honers. And you can, in fact, use most coticules to set a bevel, refine an edge, and finish it to shave-ready status.

AA, YMMV.

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When you were new to honing, did you try hones like Naniwas or Nortons? I know you have now, but did you then?
I think that would add more context to your perspective.

And you're right, it varies for a lot of people. I'm just letting people know that if they find it hard to use a coticule as an all-purpose hone, they shouldn't be surprised. If you know your simple x strokes and circles, I'd guess that Naniwas would be easier hones to use that would also take less time. And in the end, that's just my guess based on the little I've tried

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Originally Posted by heirkb

Do NOT take this as a reflection of the quality of coticules. The reason I'm writing this is that a lot of experts give their perspectives on coticules and recommend them as great hones, and I just wanted to share what I've experienced with honing on my 2 coticules. It would have been valuable for me as a newb to have heard other newbies talking about them, so maybe it will be for other newbs, too.

So, I have a 6x2 Dressante, a 7x1.5 vintage coticule, and a slurry stone. Even though I was new to x-strokes, I actually found the thinner stones to be quite nice. They actually made up for my uneven pressure by forcing me to hone more off the edge of the hone (by doing an x) so that all the blade got contact with the stone.

Now here's what I have really come to think as a result of my experiences and my discussions with others: coticules are NOT a great do-it-all hone for newbies. Maybe they're great finishers, but I wouldn't know since I spent my money on my Dressante as my only hone and couldn't afford other hones to use in a progression before my coticule (except a Naniwa 1k). Here's why I think they're not great as a do-it-all for newbies:

-Whether I tried unicot or dilucot, it was very difficult to determine when/how to dilute.
-I diluted slowly and quickly all the way in tons of different honing session and always came up with bad results.
-I tried pressure, no pressure, pressure at different stages and couldn't figure out what the hell to do.

What it boils down to for me is that using a coticule as my only hone was very confusing, because I was (am) never sure when to move on, or what to look for in the edge in the different "stages" of honing. I can't really call them stages, cause they weren't discrete.

I recently tried honing on Naniwas (Chosera 1k, superstone 5k & 8k) and got great results (for my face) on multiple razors with almost no effort. What seems to be true is that Naniwas are just a lot easier. I had discrete stages and discrete things to look for in my edges at each stage. This was very very helpful since I was (am) new to honing.


This is of course due to my ineptitude with honing, but that's the definition of a newb. I didn't start straight shaving with a 10/8 spike point blade with a 3.25" blade, and that was also due to a lack of skill. Nobody would recommend shaving with a monster on your first straight shave, and I would compare unicot/dilucot honing with that based on my experiences with it. I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.
I'm just writing this for other newbs who also have this illusion. If you want to start honing with a very difficult introduction, you can. I know people who started with just one coticule and learned to use them successfully. But if you're looking for the easiest and most consistent way to hone, then I recommend Naniwas...

And before twenty people ask, yes my hones were flat. Yes the edges were chamfered...again, the point is that as someone very inexperienced with honing, all else being equal, coticule unicot/dilucot honing was much much harder for me than honing on Naniwas. You experienced guys probably know this, but maybe there are some newer inexperienced people who would benefit from reading this

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Thank you for letting people to know your experience.
This is why Some People always recommend for newbies to use Norton or Naniwa's etc.
it will help them learn easier and not to struggle.
when you get better at honing then you can go back again to your coticules and play around. Every single natural hones takes time to learn .
gl

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Originally Posted by heirkb

I know that Bart is clear that they are advanced techniques, but somewhere along the way, I got the impression that a coticule would be a great do-it-all hone for someone looking for a cheap solution. I don't know why I got that impression, but that's irrelevant.

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Actually, it is not. I think you will be hard pressed to find any experienced honer here on this site saying that Coticules are easy-to-use, all-purpose beginner hones. The FAQ links to What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki and that is really it. There is a good reason why a grit succession of synthetic hones is recommended for beginners. That said, I am certainly not experienced, and still managed to get a decent (not great, but perfectly serviceable) edge on my new Henckeli with only a Coticule. So, yes, it can be done, but the learning curve is much steeper.

To sum this up, you made an honest mistake by mis-interpreting the information available, but that does not invalidate the usefulness of the tool per se.

Thank you for sharing your experience with coticules Heirkb. Many of us here have been trying to pass this info on and one more voice in the chorus is welcome. Coticules are hones for experienced honing as you have discovered. Most honing techniques depend on observing the 'signs' of your progress. Thee signs are very subtle with coticules as a one hone method and are easily over looked by people new and experienced in honing. With Norton and Naniwa hones the signs are just a little more obvious. Good luck in your journey!

i'm a newby at honing too and have only a coticule
and i have to say that it can be done giving the results i get now.
the shaves aren't what they should be but i have the feeling with a little practice it will be very good.
it will even become easier as you take "To all aspiring razor sharpeners" course from Bart

regards
Stijn

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Thank you for letting people to know your experience.
This is why Some People always recommend for newbies to use Norton or Naniwa's etc.
it will help them learn easier and not to struggle.
when you get better at honing then you can go back again to your coticules and play around. Every single natural hones takes time to learn .
gl

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+1 this is my opinion on this too. Not that you can't learn on a coticule but a faster stone isn't as frustrating in the beginning. Double edged sword because you can get sharp faster or mess things up faster but a Naniwa series or Norton is better in the beginning IME. Coticules are great once you have the fundamentals down and some experience under your belt.

It is possible that the OP just has bunk coticules, or at the very least ones that are not suited to to the work he wants to accomplish :shrug:

I only have one coticule, it was my first hone and it's the only one I've ever tried but it works for want I need it to do.

It's exactly like SR shaving, for every newb that says he had a great first shave there are 5 others saying it was awful. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

It is possible that the OP just has bunk coticules, or at the very least ones that are not suited to to the work he wants to accomplish :shrug:

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First, no offense to my friend Ryan, you just happened to post a very relevant point...

Therein lies the root of the problem, hence the huge blow up in the original Coticule threads, mostly precipitated by some of the most experienced Honemeisters on this forum...

Using a natural hone, is a variable in itself, then you have the slurry as another variable, then the dilution of the slurry as a third variable...

This is why many of us said this wasn't such a great idea for beginners to use,, It had nothing to do with the like or dislike of the stone or the system that was purposed for using the stone...We had nothing but good to say about the whole thing, right up until Bart purposed that newbies could do it,,, That is when things changed, and as we are now seeing more and more of these types of threads it looks as though we were right..
The other thing I am noticing is that many of you that started off with just using one stone, have started adding a low grit cutter just like we told you was going to be needed... Some of you have actually added a second Coticule (a fast cutter) so the other reason (only one stone) that was the huge attraction of the stone in the first place is being set aside too...

Please don't think I am saying this one stone system can't be used in fact it can be used on any stone that is capable of producing a slurry and can finish anywhere near 8k or better... Sham did it with a Japanese natural, I did it with a Norton 8k and IIRC it was Lynn that did it with an Escher I bet a Chinese can be used too if you wanted to take the time...

Again just like some of us have always said, every single variable you toss into the honing path has to be overcome, more variables, makes for a much steeper learning curve, so really it all boils down to how big a hill do you want to climb????
I guess there could be some satisfaction just in the pride of knowing you climbed a steep hill, which is some of what I am reading now... or perhaps, you just got lucky with buying a good Coticule :)

JMHO of what I am reading...

+1 with what Glen said,
I'd also like to add one more variable, to the equation, some razors will take longer to finish, than others depending on steel hardness and/or quality.

I've always felt no matter the job you are doing there is a correct tool to do it. Does that mean you can't use something else? Of course not but for maximum efficiency it's usually better to use the proper one.

I've been using the coticule as a finisher for years and am very happy with it. if I wanted to restore a bevel I wouldn't use it I have better choices.

Of course you'll find some razors that seem to do better with certain hones over others but in general that's what I go by. I can fall back to my Escher or japanese natural or even a pasted strop.

Just take a bar of steel and place it over running water and in several thousand years you'll have the sharpest most perfect razor in the world.

i've had many coticules and never came a cross one of them that was bad, may be i'm lucky. My first hone was a 4k/8k and i struggled with that as a newbe, yet i never struggled with coticule for some reason. I just found i liked it the first time i used it. i also liked the idea of one hone to do it all. that why i stuck with it. i have to admit the first time i used it i thought it was terrible and wonderd what all the hipe was surrounding coticule. The first time i got my edge sharp on coticule i could'nt believe how smooth the edge was. rep[eating that was far and thew. Now with lots of patients the results great .if i was new to this i'm sure i would of opted for naniwas s/s.

Thanks for sharing, Heir. It's not easy to say "I tried to do this because lots of guys said it would be easy to follow a procedure and I was unable to do it" - that takes courage.

BTW I've seen one of Heir's cotis, and it is certainly suitable for razors. In my opinion, asking if it's bad coti's is similar to asking if Heir was honing with his feet. I have never heard of "bad" coti's ending up in the "open market" and I've never heard of anyone honing with their feet (though there is the video of the guy who shaves with his feet).

Now, granted I don't know what everyone's experiences are, but looking at the responses, there seem to be two main catagories - A) New guys who counter Heir's experiences by saying coti's did work for them when they were new and B) Guys who have been around for a while saying they also don't think coti's are easy for new guys to learn on.

I think this trend is actually pretty widespread for exactly the same reason I thank Heir for posting this thread - it's not easy to admit you couldn't do something. I bet for every new guy who says they learned easily with coti's there are several for whom it did not work. I think there are highly skewed statistics presented if you "do your reading" on what works or doesn't for new guys.

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For what it's worth, I had a BBW and coti pretty early in my learning process, and my way of getting around my inability to really assess my edges at given stages and develop an "efficient" honing process was to always do more honing than I needed to. I didn't have to worry about wire edges and I wasn't doing so much honing as to remove massive amounts of steel - my philosophy was that it was better to do 50 or 100 extra strokes and know I'm definitely there than to end up with razors that won't shave. When I switched out my BBW/coti for the Naniwa 5k and 8k, my honing times were cut to about 1/4 (I timed large batches on both setups).

Not to say that the BBW or coti are bad hones - to me they are things to play with, not things to work with. It's also always good to have a plan B for razors that don't seem to behave under your plan A.

Well said, Dylan. While I still fail to see where experienced members have recommended a Coticule as an all-purpose beginner hone, I can see where beginners may be led to believe that it can (or, rather, should, because it technically can) be used by beginners.

That said, SRP is strongly focussed on synthetic hones. One of the reason is that their most vocal proponents use them either professionally or at least for large amounts of razors. For someone who hones a razor per month, or less (which I presume is the vast majority of our members), efficiency might play a less important role, though. Personally, I find the idea of honing a 1920s German razor on a 2000s Mexican made synthetic hone appalling. From a purely utilitarian perspective, this is stupid. But so what? People in my country have used natural stones for a long time, and I want to learn to do it, too, no matter the cost involved.

And to get a wider perspective, run this through a translation service: eine Schärfanleitung. It is the official sharpening tutorial of Germany's leading board. And it has everything in it that will bring upon you the wrath of SRP's honing gods: "always start with a 1k hone", "use tape", "set a double bevel", "use both hands", "don't use x-strokes", "the perfect blade angle is 16-20°"... These guys are doing it all wrong, but their edges still work.

So many variables, so many personal preferences...

Regards,
Robin

Thanks for all the responses and perspectives to everyone who posted.

In case anyone got the wrong impression, I was just writing this thread in case other newbies have the same illusions that I did about how easy and cool it would be to hone on one natural stone. I'm not trying to blame anyone for giving me that illusion, especially since I don't even remember who it could have been. Also, I'm guessing that my own tendency to infer too much has to do with it as well.

Anyways, I hope that it'll be helpful for other new guys to read what a fellow newbie thinks, cause my guess is that their experience is gonna be more like mine than like a master honer's experience.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

First, no offense to my friend Ryan, you just happened to post a very relevant point...

Therein lies the root of the problem, hence the huge blow up in the original Coticule threads, mostly precipitated by some of the most experienced Honemeisters on this forum...

Using a natural hone, is a variable in itself, then you have the slurry as another variable, then the dilution of the slurry as a third variable...

This is why many of us said this wasn't such a great idea for beginners to use,, It had nothing to do with the like or dislike of the stone or the system that was purposed for using the stone...We had nothing but good to say about the whole thing, right up until Bart purposed that newbies could do it,,, That is when things changed, and as we are now seeing more and more of these types of threads it looks as though we were right..
The other thing I am noticing is that many of you that started off with just using one stone, have started adding a low grit cutter just like we told you was going to be needed... Some of you have actually added a second Coticule (a fast cutter) so the other reason (only one stone) that was the huge attraction of the stone in the first place is being set aside too...

Please don't think I am saying this one stone system can't be used in fact it can be used on any stone that is capable of producing a slurry and can finish anywhere near 8k or better... Sham did it with a Japanese natural, I did it with a Norton 8k and IIRC it was Lynn that did it with an Escher I bet a Chinese can be used too if you wanted to take the time...

Again just like some of us have always said, every single variable you toss into the honing path has to be overcome, more variables, makes for a much steeper learning curve, so really it all boils down to how big a hill do you want to climb????
I guess there could be some satisfaction just in the pride of knowing you climbed a steep hill, which is some of what I am reading now... or perhaps, you just got lucky with buying a good Coticule :)

JMHO of what I am reading...

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No offense taken at all Glen, in fact you've brought up some great points.

Re-reading my original post I can see how it may appear that I'm recommending coticules to newbies; this was not my intention, even though I've had success with mine since day one. I realize for every member like myself and Gary there are many who just can't seem to make it work. And therein lies Glen's "variables" argument.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

BTW I've seen one of Heir's cotis, and it is certainly suitable for razors.

In my opinion, asking if it's bad coti's is similar to asking if Heir was honing with his feet. I have never heard of "bad" coti's ending up in the "open market" and I've never heard of anyone honing with their feet

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Dylan, your first point is taken, I just had to ask the question to "throw it out there.

Your second point, however, is off the mark. Sham insinuates that members may have "bad" coticules quite frequently (or, as he puts it, coticules that are not suitable for straight razors), leading me to believe that if he continues to raise the same question over and over again then he must have had some valid reason to do so. I have no idea where you got this "honing with feet" comparison from. Since coticules are natural, and natural substances are subject to wide variances, there is always a possiblity that there is a bad apple in the bunch. Hasn't happened to me, or Gary or many others, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Let's just leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Sham insinuates that members may have "bad" coticules quite frequently (or, as he puts it, coticules that are not suitable for straight razors)

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Can you point to a post or thread? I tried searching via google for Coticule "not suitable" and didn't see anything about coticules that were not suitable for honing razors.

The honing with feet part was a joke, specifically a reference to the youtube video that was posted a while back.

+1 to what Glen said... I have a pretty fast coticule, but I'm still partial to using a honing progression involving other stones with the coticule as a finisher. Lots of variables there, I like to take it down to 1 or two.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Sham insinuates that members may have "bad" coticules quite frequently (or, as he puts it, coticules that are not suitable for straight razors), leading me to believe that if he continues to raise the same question over and over again then he must have had some valid reason to do so.

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Absolutely. Let me use an analogy: "One wrong way driver? Hundreds!" Mystery solved, case closed, on with the honing.

Just to back up Ryan, I have seen posts by Sham where he stated that he has had many .... a very large number .... of coticules, and IIRC ,only three have been excellent razor hones. Like Ryan and Gary I have been lucky in that regard and in the 20 or so I have or have had I've yet to get one that wasn't satisfactory for honing razors. Some have been better than others so I can vouch for there being variation between them.

Matter of fact the best one I have is an 8x3 natural that TheTopher (former member) bought from Howard. Of course it was harvested a few years ago by Rob at Ardennes. Chris (TheTopher) told me that it was "alright" and would get a razor sharp but not to the level of sharpness that he was used to. He called it scary sharp and preferred his 16k shapton edges. I bought that coticule from him and love the shaves from the edges it provides.

So not putting words in Sham's mouth and then quoting him, but I bet that when he says that he has run into a lot of 'bad' coticules it is just that they aren't bringing edges up to the sharpness that he prefers. IOW, someone else might find the same stones perfectly good.

I would really hate to think that SRP is thought of as pro synthetic in a context that means we are not fond of our natural stones. I finished with a Coticule for a couple years until I got an Escher which in my opinion produced better results. I still think the Coticule is a fine stone and very much fun to play around with since Bart came up with the one hone method using a variance of slurry consistency. I am also quite fond of my Japanese Naturals (Asagi, Kiita and Ohzuku) and find the finishing results from them to be better than the Coticule too. My biggest problem in honing as much as I do, was that the Coticule was not as consistent for me on a daily basis. What I mean here is that I sit down every day and hone a minimum of a dozen razors and I like for them all to be perfect first time through. My experience has shown me that the chances of this happening with either sythetics or my Escher, Asagi or Ohzuku is greater than with the Coticule.

As pointed out earlier, if you are just honing a few razors for you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Coticule and you can tinker with it and get a very respectable edge. If it is not perfect first time through, you can do another 5 strokes or 3-5 strokes once or twice and usually get it there.

The reason I like to teach new people on the Norton, Naniwa's or Shapton's is that they are very consistent and I think a new person can pick up the art as quickly as they can master the stroke and pressure. This goes for either circles or pyramids. As Robin pointed out there are people doing a variety of techniques out there and most are variations of techniques that already exist and that fit the preference of the person. I am hopeful that people will continue to improve on the current techniques and continue to make it easier for people to maintain their own razors. That to me is what this sport is all about.

Thanks guys,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by heirkb

When you were new to honing, did you try hones like Naniwas or Nortons? I know you have now, but did you then?
I think that would add more context to your perspective.

And you're right, it varies for a lot of people. I'm just letting people know that if they find it hard to use a coticule as an all-purpose hone, they shouldn't be surprised. If you know your simple x strokes and circles, I'd guess that Naniwas would be easier hones to use that would also take less time. And in the end, that's just my guess based on the little I've tried

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My first honing setup was the Norton 220-1K-4K-8K, soon accompanied by a Guangxi. I struggled with these, but I had no mentoring other than the Wiki info and some videos.

For me, Bart's Unicot instructions were my most important tutorial. Maybe I should have appreciated that a bevel is not set until arm hair can be shaved, but I didn't get that until then. I was really lost when it came to when exactly to progress to the next finer hone (either by switching up the stone or diluting the slurry), and Bart's strict "30 on this, 30 on that, 50 on the next" instructions gave me the specificity I needed, and helped me hone my first shave-ready blade, which of course is a great confidence-builder for a newbie. His suggestion to create a double bevel helped me to visualize and understand for the first time exactly what I was trying to do with the bevel, and appreciate the multiple factors that go into sharpening a razor. Maybe it was just "time" for me to get it, and it would have happened if I'd just stuck with the Nortons a little longer -- hard to say.

Another thing worth mentioning, but which may be peculiar to me and the other Belgian stone lovers out there, is the beauty of these stones and the fact they are natural products. I remember sitting with my first coti-BBW natural combo and staring at it, touching it, admiring the grain, imagining the millions of years that went into it's creation, etc., for over an hour. To me it was a totem, a holy object, and still is. I always feel it is an honor for me to posess and use such a stone, and I take pride in using it well.

All this said, there is a place for synthetics, and I routinely use them -- now that I understand what I am trying to do, and how to judge my progress -- at least through the edge repair and initial bevel establishment. After that, though, it's naturals for me: Coti, BBW, Guangxi, Asagi, Kiita.

I have no argument with the idea of recommending Naniwas to newcomers. If I had it to do over, I might go that route myself. But one could do worse than begin one's honing career slavishly following Bart's instructions until the golden door of enlightenment swings open.

Just a thought here, it all comes down to the hand of the honer and the face of the shaver. I think of a saying I use in golf...."It's not how, it's how many" On that note, it's not what you hone on, it's how it shaves for you. I love the shave I get off Sbrouwers coti and I've had blades honed off Nortons, the C12K, from Lynn, from KenRup etc etc etc. What works for might is.........what works for me. I've gotten great results of a coti even only having having honed a small hand full of razors. I guess to sum it all up, to each his own. Cheers and great smooth shaves to all :beer2:.

A "bad" coticule.... yes, they exist, I have seen 2 of them in person and used them. They are grey with white "flecks/streaks" and are very coarse, perhaps a 1K, but I did not test them for that function. They simply tore up an 8K edge. The last one I came across was about 8 months ago. These were both owned by others. I also have a coticule that is not nearly as coarse as the grey ones but is still much to coarse to use as a finisher. More like a 5-6K grit. Its color is a normal "cream/tan" but with some "reddish" streaks/tints/colors. I also had another small coticule that was not suitable as a finisher. I cut it up and used it for slurry stones.

Yes, natural stones do vary. Sometimes a lot!

Hope this helps to clear things up a bit,:)

I struggled with the coticle about the same as I struggled with learning to shave well, no more, no less. Neither happened overnight, but both are definitely doable – even for beginners – if that’s what they choose.

Seems like the overriding theme of this thread is to caution new users about investing too heavily or exclusively in the coticle. We can all give our input to help a beginner make an informed decision about what he should or can use initially, but in the end everybody’s different, and everyone will go the direction that calls to them the loudest.

I happen to really like the coticle for a ton of reasons, and while I do have interest in some other hones to complement it, I don’t see myself giving it up to go a more ‘conventional’ route. But that’s me….

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Originally Posted by pcb01

Another thing worth mentioning, but which may be peculiar to me and the other Belgian stone lovers out there, is the beauty of these stones and the fact they are natural products. I remember sitting with my first coti-BBW natural combo and staring at it, touching it, admiring the grain, imagining the millions of years that went into it's creation, etc., for over an hour. To me it was a totem, a holy object, and still is. I always feel it is an honor for me to posess and use such a stone, and I take pride in using it well.

All this said, there is a place for synthetics,

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Well said.

With synthetics we have a constant that can be discussed with a certain knowing making it easier to get online help.

Natural stones are more like children. They are not here for us. They are here for themselves and for their own purposes. However we can use them to mow the lawn or set out the garbage while they are with us.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to be missing the point the original poster seemed to be making, From what I understand he was telling his experience and telling other Newb's that they might wan't to think twice before investing in this method. I for One am glad I went with the Naniwa hones and I haven't even had a chance to use them yet ( Got two in the mail and waiting for the other two ). The reason I say this is the cost of 1 Coticule Stones from what Iv'e seen can be equal or more than what I spent on 4 naniwa super stones. A 1,4,8 and 12k setup. And from most of what I've read the Naniwa's should be easer to learn on because of the consistency of the hones. From a financial stand point this seems to make sense to me. Because most of what I reading is that people that love the Coticule Stones don't use ONE stone and only one stone. altho I also think that some of the natural stones are beautiful and there is an allure to using something natural, Being on a budget I simply am not ready to invest in an uncertain result of that natural stones as a beginner in honing and will wait till I have the money to play with. If I where wealthy I might do things different.
But like many have said to each his own.

If i was honing a dozen razoprs a day it would have to be nortons /naniwas etc. As i don't i don't mind using one of my coticules. I rebuild bevels with 325/600/1k naniwa. I have just been using .5 diamond spray with modular paddle at the end of my coticule honing with just 5 laps on .5, 0.25,5 laps on cr.ox. The shaves have been spot on smooth and not harsh at all, i found this gaurantees a shave ready edge first time round with out tinkering on the coticule. which in efect saves time and test shaves.

@Gary:

My use of the Coticule is similar, I use a 1k-4k-8k Norton set up, then move to my Coticule... followed with 10 laps on a .50 CrOx bench strop the 15 laps on my CeOx bench strop...

This is pretty much my standard honing setup on the Sheffield Wedges that I sharpen for people... It produces a nice sharp edge, and the smooth finish of the Coticule limits the harshness that you can get off of those heavy wedges..

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

If i was honing a dozen razoprs a day it would have to be nortons /naniwas etc. As i don't i don't mind using one of my coticules. I rebuild bevels with 325/600/1k naniwa. I have just been using .5 diamond spray with modular paddle at the end of my coticule honing with just 5 laps on .5, 0.25,5 laps on cr.ox. The shaves have been spot on smooth and not harsh at all, i found this gaurantees a shave ready edge first time round with out tinkering on the coticule. which in efect saves time and test shaves.

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That is the thing, I was talking to Lynn on the phone the other day and he told me he had a whole bunch of razors to hone over this weekend. Between those for SRD, other vendors, and individuals razors. This is why you frequently see the mention of reliable and consistent results being the criteria for pro honing. When you've got a gang of them to turn out and folks who want them yesterday efficiency is key.

I've set a bevel with the coticule/slurry to prove that I could but my routine is the 1k level stone for that if necessary and the 4k level if that is all the edge needs. One way or the other, unless I'm just in the mood to go all coticule/blue, after the bevel is set I will sharpen on the synthetics and finish on a natural. Sometimes the coticule if I'm in the mood for that but mostly the Escher yellow/green here lately.

This isn't carved in stone (no pun intended) and I might be finishing on a Naniwa 12k or a Shapton pro 15 or 30k day after tomorrow. Just what is going on now and where the coticule fits in with me right now. I still think a new guy is better off with a Norton 4/8 or a Naniwa starter set until he learns his stroke, sharpening tests, and is successfully shaving with razors he has honed. Having gotten to that level a coticule is a great stone to have and to work with..... if you like honing razors beyond just getting a shave. Not that a guy couldn't get along with just a coticule but IME it is better to have it as an adjunct to a series of synthetics. Just IMHO.

Jimmy you say you use pyramid after 1k as set bevel. what are you starting at ie 25/25 .
I have 5 DA's. I'm going start playing around with my 4k/8k for a change.

glenn after you set bevel on 1k how many laps do you average on 4k only how many do you finish wioth on 8k.

The 4k/8k was my first hone but i never realy gave a much time as i did suceed with coticule so it just stayed where it was. I

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Jimmy you say you use pyramid after 1k as set bevel. what are you starting at ie 25/25 .
I have 5 DA's. I'm going start playing around with my 4k/8k for a change.

glenn after you set bevel on 1k how many laps do you average on 4k only how many do you finish wioth on 8k.

The 4k/8k was my first hone but i never realy gave a much time as i did suceed with coticule so it just stayed where it was. I

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Gary, sometimes I start 30/30 and at other times 25/25. Another way that I have found good and that is less aggressive is here in the wiki. Starting with 15/5 and on with it as described in the article. I got that from Randydance and put it in the wiki. It works well too. It just depends on where the edge is at the start and how I intuitively feel about it. Here is an archived post by Glen with what I think is his method with the Nortons.

cheers jimmy

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

cheers jimmy

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Always a pleasure to talk honing with you Gary. Let us know what you think of the various ways after you've had a chance to work with them.

Well written and I am definitely glad you found a method that works for you. Success and confidence goes a long way with personal preference.

Out of the thousands and thousands of new people that we have seen struggle with learning to hone, there has always been the exception given any stone and especially when people are patient and not expecting immediate results. The more razors you hone and the more hones you try, the more you will continue to learn.

I am glad you feel that there is a place for synthetics. I feel there is a place for all stones. Maybe this is why I don't have the devotion to any one specific idealized hone.

Best of continued success...........

Lynn

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Originally Posted by pcb01

My first honing setup was the Norton 220-1K-4K-8K, soon accompanied by a Guangxi. I struggled with these, but I had no mentoring other than the Wiki info and some videos.

For me, Bart's Unicot instructions were my most important tutorial. Maybe I should have appreciated that a bevel is not set until arm hair can be shaved, but I didn't get that until then. I was really lost when it came to when exactly to progress to the next finer hone (either by switching up the stone or diluting the slurry), and Bart's strict "30 on this, 30 on that, 50 on the next" instructions gave me the specificity I needed, and helped me hone my first shave-ready blade, which of course is a great confidence-builder for a newbie. His suggestion to create a double bevel helped me to visualize and understand for the first time exactly what I was trying to do with the bevel, and appreciate the multiple factors that go into sharpening a razor. Maybe it was just "time" for me to get it, and it would have happened if I'd just stuck with the Nortons a little longer -- hard to say.

Another thing worth mentioning, but which may be peculiar to me and the other Belgian stone lovers out there, is the beauty of these stones and the fact they are natural products. I remember sitting with my first coti-BBW natural combo and staring at it, touching it, admiring the grain, imagining the millions of years that went into it's creation, etc., for over an hour. To me it was a totem, a holy object, and still is. I always feel it is an honor for me to posess and use such a stone, and I take pride in using it well.

All this said, there is a place for synthetics, and I routinely use them -- now that I understand what I am trying to do, and how to judge my progress -- at least through the edge repair and initial bevel establishment. After that, though, it's naturals for me: Coti, BBW, Guangxi, Asagi, Kiita.

I have no argument with the idea of recommending Naniwas to newcomers. If I had it to do over, I might go that route myself. But one could do worse than begin one's honing career slavishly following Bart's instructions until the golden door of enlightenment swings open.

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Originally Posted by Gary Haywood

Jimmy you say you use pyramid after 1k as set bevel. what are you starting at IE 25/25 .
I have 5 DA's. I'm going start playing around with my 4k/8k for a change.

Glenn after you set bevel on 1k how many laps do you average on 4k only how many do you finish with on 8k.

The 4k/8k was my first hone but i never really gave a much time as i did succeed with Coticule so it just stayed where it was. I

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As always I hesitate to give lap counts, but you know what your doing Gary, so on average I would say 20 laps 4k, 20 laps 8k, very rarely less, I will add 5 laps at a time by feel, if I think it needs it... of course YMMV but I doubt by too much...

cheers glenn