Thread: Simple Advice for Honers in Woodworking

Originally Posted by Sailor

My wife says it's a serious disease: as soon as i see something that is dull, i start moaning and then vanish into my garage and don't come out until that same thing is sharpened. There were times that this got really bad: i wanted to do most of my sharpening with hand stones only. Luckily nowadays i use them with kitchen knives and razors and the rest of my sharpening i do with my good water grinder.

Sharpening things, by itself, is interesting and relaxing, sort of Zen.
However that doesn't mean that person without previous experience in sharpening could not became an excellent razor sharpener. It is up to person, and his will to practice and learn.

It is good that you sharpen the kitchen knives along with your tools. I do that too, and all of my hones are presents for my wife

Of coarse experienced sharpeners can do razors with practice, but IME the edges should be different when they are at their respective best.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Good post! I made most of my gains in honing straight razors when I threw out all my concerns for sharpness and focused entirely on shaping and smoothing the bevel that already existed.

After my finisher(Nakayama) it just plain leather for me, like you say on the well established existing bevel to start it.

Originally Posted by kevint

What did you give up; the double bevel, the 30k? How long have you been in pursuit?

I go by feel. The feel of the tool on stone and the feel of the tool in work.

Simply put, for me woodworking edges start out the same way but afterwards it changes. I have and will continue to use double bevels for plane blades but you won't find them on my razors anymore.
That experiment I tried on the double bevel was in Sept. of 09. I had been using them on razors for a while before that post. So a little over a year.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

But more importantly, my grandfather played the fiddle, but no one in my family picked it up... Your post made me think about that again. How much would one of your fiddles cost (I need to find a guy to teach me)

Paul,it would be my pleasure to help you with that question, shoot me a pm and I will help you get started.

Hi Mike I must say I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying. Maybe only because i dont want to hear it, as they who want to seem to have no trouble.

Zen was mentioned again. The funny thing about that is it often seems to uphold two opposite ideas as being equally true. Like everything is different; and it's all the same.

Am I handicapped by that understanding? Would anyone use the same techniques(strokes, pressure, #laps etc) on a extra hollow as on thick wedge. do you sharpen your carving knives exactly the same as chefs knife. Or, even among kitchen knives are they all done the same-even a cleaver?

I have tried to enjoy sharpening because the things I enjoy require it. I suppose if it were possible to have a perfectly sharp tool that never dulled I might be tempted to get some. luckily,perhaps, that is money I don't need to save. Sharpening is part of the connection to those came before. when we choose do do something by hand powered, low tech methods the process can become more important than the result. shaving can teach you that quite well. that doesn't mean to accept a bad shave; but, after that great shave you will need to do it again. So the experience is not just 15 minutes at the mirror. It is the whole process.

I haven't seen many Jpn tool users that sharpen microbevels. There are not many sharpening jigs that will hold the plane blades. I think most of us sharpen everything freehand. I think it's important to have that direct contact. the fingers are vastly more intelligent than any jig.

could be too much rambling there on my part so a little more wont hurt. I understand how the pros feel if someone comes along after some luck sharpening knives and tries to reinvent razor honing. You have to learn the basics from those who came before and practice a new skill-this should be obvious to anyone who actually does the work they claim, but saying one does not inform the other makes no sense to me.

[QUOTE=kevint;633600]Hi Mike I must say I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying. Maybe only because i dont want to hear it, as they who want to seem to have no trouble.

Anyone who is serious about sharpening, and does not just do it when it has to be done will always learn more. I don't feel bumed out that part of my whole sharpening philosophy got debunked in the last few months and humbled me, I am excited because I learned.

Zen was mentioned again. The funny thing about that is it often seems to uphold two opposite ideas as being equally true. Like everything is different; and it's all the same.

Yet the goal of shaving is unique in that you are hopefully not cutting into substrate.

Am I handicapped by that understanding? Would anyone use the same techniques(strokes, pressure, #laps etc) on a extra hollow as on thick wedge. do you sharpen your carving knives exactly the same as chefs knife. Or, even among kitchen knives are they all done the same-even a cleaver?

Some do, some don't. Each tool user according to their skill, in time knows what edge he like the best, and knows where to bring the tool when needed or learn to sharpen.

I have tried to enjoy sharpening because the things I enjoy require it. I suppose if it were possible to have a perfectly sharp tool that never dulled I might be tempted to get some. luckily,perhaps, that is money I don't need to save. Sharpening is part of the connection to those came before. when we choose do do something by hand powered, low tech methods the process can become more important than the result. shaving can teach you that quite well. that doesn't mean to accept a bad shave; but, after that great shave you will need to do it again. So the experience is not just 15 minutes at the mirror. It is the whole process.

For sure!!!!!!!! With great enthusiasm!!!!

I haven't seen many Jpn tool users that sharpen microbevels. There are not many sharpening jigs that will hold the plane blades. I think most of us sharpen everything freehand. I think it's important to have that direct contact. the fingers are vastly more intelligent than any jig.

They pride themselves on a flat bevel, done freehand. Half of my tools are from japan. The other half, America(and Can) and Europe. East meets west. You must agree, that the great skill in sharpening Jpn tools is enhanced by the thick layer of soft metal sitting behind the thin layer of blue or white steel(which do you prefer?). No microbevel needed it is accomplished through laminating. Freehand sharpening is what Jpn tools were designed for.i.e. jigs are redundant here and micros are too.

Also, micro on the Jpn would loose the support of the soft iron and chip because it is so hard. Soft metal cusions shock. You probably know this but some people might not.

Their is nothing to be ashammed of if you sharpen with a jig on western tools. If you are applying microbevels to the generous thickness of tool steel fro Lie Nielsen, or Veritas plane blades, Make a docking jig for you honing jig to repeat the microbevels. You would waste a lot of precious time and stone trying to repeat what you do on jpn steel to the very thick tool steel of your Low angle Jack Plane.


could be too much rambling there on my part so a little more wont hurt. I understand how the pros feel if someone comes along after some luck sharpening knives and tries to reinvent razor honing. You have to learn the basics from those who came before and practice a new skill-this should be obvious to anyone who actually does the work they claim, but saying one does not inform the other makes no sense to me.

Fair statement Kevin. I have never heard a piece of wood scream and complain that an edge was too sharp and harsh. as that micro bevel edge planes off whisper thin pieces of wood and leaves a shiny surface behind. How would our skin feel if that happened. Take off whisper thin layers of skin and leave freshly severed capillaries does not sound as romantic?

I agree to everything that has been written down. Sharpening is an art, every tool has its own progression and best finishing method. We all are trying to find what works best for us!

Never having honed knives, chisels or other sharp things except for razors, I guess I come to it with the advantage of not having pre-exising expectations. If I were to hone a knife, I fear I would be greatly dissapointed.

I don't know Mike; think of the leather worker skiving, backwoodsman skinning a opossum, or cabinet maker paring to layout- (s)he too wishes not to cut too deeply. Personally I have never considered my skin to be the substrate-the whisker is what I am trying to cut. So, much like letting a polish plane go to dull or making that first cut too rank, or have the plane body out of tune-each fault alone could cause tear out in unfriendly wood(and unlike my skin will not heal on its own); a nick to the skin, or irritation is the same sort of error - a lapse in judgment, attention.

Heh heh. I have never screamed either. The wood will similarly flinch and you can hear it sometimes. If not on that pass the next when the blade slips over the voids.

My tools are global as well. Now I dont think the jpn blade with a micro bevel would necessarily be more prone to chipping. The hagane may be 1/8 inch thick and you should never see a chip that deep unless you drop a drop on concrete or perhaps chop a bad ass knot with too low an angle. Planes are thick but thin paring chisels are not. What I was suggesting is that in using jigs you miss that direct interface with steel and stone and in the long run will limit the performance of your hand honed edges.

It works both ways too. Sharpening razors can help you become a better with other tools. Certainly though I guess I could admit I do push my razors further, paying more attention to the end result; when perhaps I would quit on a knife and accept the result as is.

Originally Posted by kevint

I don't know Mike; think of the leather worker skiving, backwoodsman skinning a opossum, or cabinet maker paring to layout- (s)he too wishes not to cut too deeply. Personally I have never considered my skin to be the substrate-the whisker is what I am trying to cut. So, much like letting a polish plane go to dull or making that first cut too rank, or have the plane body out of tune-each fault alone could cause tear out in unfriendly wood(and unlike my skin will not heal on its own); a nick to the skin, or irritation is the same sort of error - a lapse in judgment, attention.

Heh heh. I have never screamed either. The wood will similarly flinch and you can hear it sometimes. If not on that pass the next when the blade slips over the voids.

My tools are global as well. Now I dont think the jpn blade with a micro bevel would necessarily be more prone to chipping. The hagane may be 1/8 inch thick and you should never see a chip that deep unless you drop a drop on concrete or perhaps chop a bad ass knot with too low an angle. Planes are thick but thin paring chisels are not. What I was suggesting is that in using jigs you miss that direct interface with steel and stone and in the long run will limit the performance of your hand honed edges.

It works both ways too. Sharpening razors can help you become a better with other tools. Certainly though I guess I could admit I do push my razors further, paying more attention to the end result; when perhaps I would quit on a knife and accept the result as is.

In all you said the last part about Sharpening Razors can help you with other tools is the part in which we are in full agreement.

I would never consider a double bevel on my hagane gouges, for me it is counterintuitive. In that using jigs leads to an inferior edge puts you in a very, very small fraction of sharpeners who can achieve better results free hand. I don't know if I am there yet.

With many tools like gouges I have little choice but to do them freehand. But I am very much at peace with the advantage a jig offers when I can use one.

Proof will always be in the "face factor" as mentioned by another member. That factor is complicated by shaving styles. Men that are plowing through their beards when first starting might not appreciate the differences. I was happy with my sharpening style for a while till I learned how to shave better. That is when I was able seperate the two. Then it all clicked.

A razors edge is more complex than two planes meeting at a perfect line in space. That edge for me does not give me the smoothness while shaving but is fine for woodworking.

Fortunately, this forum allows anyone willing to try with the methods that almost everyone will be successful and get great shaves and so much help almost 24 hrs each day with methods tried and true for all.

I always love your insight and willingness to share. So much to learn if we are willing to listen and no better forum to do it on.

Michael

Originally Posted by jeness

I agree to everything that has been written down. Sharpening is an art, every tool has its own progression and best finishing method. We all are trying to find what works best for us!

An Art that could have easily slipped away too. Most of us luckily are finding out, some sooner, some later, but many more individuals find success from posts that you read.
Funny in a way that this medium has become the serrogate of father, grandfather barber etc. If they are looking down at us, do you ever wonder what they are saying?

Originally Posted by leadduck

Never having honed knives, chisels or other sharp things except for razors, I guess I come to it with the advantage of not having pre-exising expectations. If I were to hone a knife, I fear I would be greatly dissapointed.

The advantage you have is an open mind. No doubt there would be a learning curve, but anything near as sharp as your razor will be knowledge that will help you. Learning to hone kitchen tools is a must if you want to stay happily married

I have, believe it or not, always tried to cultivate an open mind; yet still cannot reach the point of understanding that sharp and smooth is anything more, and nothing less that those two planes intersecting.

Please be sure of the fact I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. I dont believe we need those labels. The best i can arrive at for a meaningful difference between razor and any other edged tool is stropping. A razor is the only thing I strop on a every time basis.
Any uniqueness is not the high count in the progression, because many can do with less, or work tools with more. Nor any specialized stroke as these can be used with many tools. It's not finesse-some people do everything with finesse.

What is it that makes razors so special and unique, ('cause I am lost for sure now)?

[QUOTE=kevint;634234]I have, believe it or not, always tried to cultivate an open mind; yet still cannot reach the point of understanding that sharp and smooth is anything more, and nothing less that those two planes intersecting.[Quote]


Get some really high grit material, a 30k, .1 diamond film. Get a descent scope. Perfect that plane, visually confirm with a descent scope that you are surpassing the sharpness and eveness of what you normally do and compare the shaves. While your at it experiment with a flat vs a convexed bevel.
Or you can believe I did all that over the past year and my personal face factor was the test. I can't say I am right and you are wrong, but I did take the time and base my own observations on what was in front of me and on my face. Paradigms were made to be broken and if you are like me, you might have to just do it for yourself.

[Quote]Please be sure of the fact I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. I dont believe we need those labels. The best i can arrive at for a meaningful difference between razor and any other edged tool is stropping. A razor is the only thing I strop on a every time basis.
Any uniqueness is not the high count in the progression, because many can do with less, or work tools with more. Nor any specialized stroke as these can be used with many tools. It's not finesse-some people do everything with finesse.[Quote]


Stropping is King! (get it)

What is it that makes razors so special and unique, ('cause I am lost for sure now)?

An unprotected naked blade that lifts and cuts whiskers off the skin. As much fun as they are while using them, large smiles and other contortions of the face should be supressed till the shave is complete. Many eccentric
individuals continue to use them even though certain gov'ts have actually outlawed their sale.

Just hit me Kevin, maybe your tool edges are just like your razor edges. Mine are definitely not. Another experiment!!!Would it not be funny if my next fiddle is better cause I carved it with razor edges(seriously)!!!!!!!!!Maybe the secret of Stradivari, you just gave me.(Not so seriously)
Off to my studio I go!!!!!Kind of makes me rethink that I should have gotten more carbon blades for my tools. Nakayamas don't fair as well on some of the western alloys in just about all of my planes, but I will try on my gouges and chisels. I went that way cause of the humidity down here in south Florida.