Thread: Weird stains on blades after honing

Originally Posted by Magpie

I have had water stains before, and in the rare times I used tape, it did in fact become concentrated along the tape line.

What I discovered, was that my water itself was the problem. High acidity in the water, and the tape holds the water along its edge, prolonging contact. Also can be a problem in places where they put lots of chlorine in the water.

I have not tried it yet, but I am thinking that if you added some baking soda to some water, and used that instead of tap, you might help prevent such things.

just my 2cent

I think Magpie is correct - I have read of other people using this trick to prevent staining and quick rust formation. Baking Soda/Bicarb/Bicarbonate of Soda/Sodium Bicarbonate - they are all the same thing if anyone wants to get some.

With some places, the tap water isn't of consistent quality - something to do with well water/aquifers: the levels go up and down according to climate and the water property changes with the volume of water.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I think Magpie is correct - I have read of other people using this trick to prevent staining and quick rust formation. Baking Soda/Bicarb/Bicarbonate of Soda/Sodium Bicarbonate - they are all the same thing if anyone wants to get some.

With some places, the tap water isn't of consistent quality - something to do with well water/aquifers: the levels go up and down according to climate and the water property changes with the volume of water.

Regards,
Neil

Granted Neil...I thought about that too, but I never had an issue with my other hones (I use the same water and always filtered...so, this is the constant). I only had this issue when using this JNat in particular.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Robert,
I do not think the color correlates with any metal deposits in the stone. Those stones do not contain metals whatsoever from all the info I have seen.

I do not doubt what you say at all...but, something must be leading to this staining. In my case, it may have been a "not so good" stone (although it seemed to give a great edge)...not to mention, it was very very quick (~3-5 strokes is all it took...that's not a lot of time on the stones). But, I think Jeff uses much better quality stone(s) than what I had gotten.

I don't think it's the water as I use filtered water on on my other hones and never saw this before. It can't be the razor, as it has been through other honing stones (e.g., Naniwa, Coti, Escher) with no staining before.

If not iron, then what could possibly lead to this?

Hmmm...this is getting to be interesting

I have always used bicarb diluted in water on my J-Nats. Never had a problem with rust.
Sodium carbonate (washing soda) is traditionally used by sword polishers as it takes several days to complete a sword.
Be careful about using it with synthetic stones. I found it safe enough with Kings but don't use it with any ceramics like Shaptons.

Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

I do not doubt what you say at all...but, something must be leading to this staining. In my case, it may have been a "not so good" stone (although it seemed to give a great edge)...not to mention, it was very very quick (~3-5 strokes is all it took...that's not a lot of time on the stones). But, I think Jeff uses much better quality stone(s) than what I had gotten.

I don't think it's the water as I use filtered water on on my other hones and never saw this before. It can't be the razor, as it has been through other honing stones (e.g., Naniwa, Coti, Escher) with no staining before.

If not iron, then what could possibly lead to this?

Hmmm...this is getting to be interesting

It might be an electrolytic process. Robert - you use filtered water but I don't think that is the the same as ph neutral steam distilled water - filtering usually only removes particulate matter, depending on the filter of course - I don't know what you are using.

A good electrolyte is water, which contains oxygen, and either a salty or acidic concentration. If you use distilled water (ie - get rid of one variable right from the start), then the only things affecting the ph value of the water is what it comes into contact with - the stone, the container, the razor and the tape, for instance. Of these, the stone must have the biggest impact. So - your stone is either particularly acidic or alkaline (salty).

As japanese sword polishers advocate the use of bicarb then the stones they use must have an acidic nature. But, as the stones are all 'individual' the pH value must differ from stone to stone. I guess we can say there is a range from high to low acidity, and this will leach out of the stone into the water (electrolyte) to increase its potential for causing rust.

What you are describing Robert sounds like exposure to an acid-rich electrolyte - acids remove metal and promote pitting, whereas salts just convert the oxidised metal that is there. If your water is simply filtered then it may be acidic (below pH 7) and add to the problem. Water with a low pH is known to be corrosive and to carry metal ions, including iron.

A rough estimate can be made by assessing whether the water is soft (acidic) or hard (alkaline). Hard water leaves soap scum, a film on the surface of hot drinks, furring of kettles.

I have a couple or three japanese natural stones and some pH testing papers (much more sensitive than the old litmus papers) somewhere - if I can find them I'll see what the reading from stone to stone is.

But this is just theory! It could equally well be due to some obscure arrangement of the celestial bodies... it didn't say "on no account hone any razors today" in your horoscope, did it?

Regards,
Neil

Well, I found the three stones and the pH paper. One of the stones was a 330mate one from Mark - a brilliant deal by the way, and a quality stone.

I tested the water first - pH neutral at 7.

I then rinsed a DMT with the water, raised a slurry on the stone, and applied the paper before rinsing the DMT again and repeating.

All the stones went towards the alkaline end - not by much, maybe half a step to one step on the pH scale.

I then honed a razor on each of the hones, and retested the slurry - same as before or so slight a difference as to being virtually undetectable by the paper.

To put that into perspective, sea water is about pH 8.

With the three sample stones I used I don't think that the stone itself could be responsible for any detrimental effect to the metal of the blade, giving the short time of immersion in the water on the surface of the stone.

So that leaves other factors to be considered - the most obvious ones being the actual pH value of the water used by the individual and the actual stone used. Next I would consider if the tape had any bearing on results - after that - who knows?

Regards,
Neil

PS: I hone over a trough - the trough catches water and I don't empty it that often, which means it has the slurry from shaptons, thuringians, CFs, BBWs, coticules, arkansas and other stones, mostly natural ones, in it. So I tested the water - it too was pH 8 or just a smidgeon above.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I have always used bicarb diluted in water on my J-Nats. Never had a problem with rust.
Sodium carbonate (washing soda) is traditionally used by sword polishers as it takes several days to complete a sword.
Be careful about using it with synthetic stones. I found it safe enough with Kings but don't use it with any ceramics like Shaptons.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

It might be an electrolytic process. Robert - you use filtered water but I don't think that is the the same as ph neutral steam distilled water - filtering usually only removes particulate matter, depending on the filter of course - I don't know what you are using.

A good electrolyte is water, which contains oxygen, and either a salty or acidic concentration. If you use distilled water (ie - get rid of one variable right from the start), then the only things affecting the ph value of the water is what it comes into contact with - the stone, the container, the razor and the tape, for instance. Of these, the stone must have the biggest impact. So - your stone is either particularly acidic or alkaline (salty).

As japanese sword polishers advocate the use of bicarb then the stones they use must have an acidic nature. But, as the stones are all 'individual' the pH value must differ from stone to stone. I guess we can say there is a range from high to low acidity, and this will leach out of the stone into the water (electrolyte) to increase its potential for causing rust.

What you are describing Robert sounds like exposure to an acid-rich electrolyte - acids remove metal and promote pitting, whereas salts just convert the oxidised metal that is there. If your water is simply filtered then it may be acidic (below pH 7) and add to the problem. Water with a low pH is known to be corrosive and to carry metal ions, including iron.

A rough estimate can be made by assessing whether the water is soft (acidic) or hard (alkaline). Hard water leaves soap scum, a film on the surface of hot drinks, furring of kettles.

I have a couple or three japanese natural stones and some pH testing papers (much more sensitive than the old litmus papers) somewhere - if I can find them I'll see what the reading from stone to stone is.

But this is just theory! It could equally well be due to some obscure arrangement of the celestial bodies... it didn't say "on no account hone any razors today" in your horoscope, did it?

Regards,
Neil

Hmmmm...this info is good. Never measured the pH of the filtered water (it's just the simple PUR water system attached to the kitchen faucet), but the fact that you both mentioned the use if bicarb in honing with the JNat (or in swords making) leads me to believe that a combination of my water pH with the stone's alkanility/acidity properties maybe the culprit(s). I never got this issue with my other hones (Naniwas, Escher, Coti...granted they are different than JNats) and I have used the same water all the time.

I didn't check the horoscope that day, but maybe the Gods of Olympia had it in for me that day

I have returned the stone (I got it from 1194markr on eBay. It's this one here...maybe you guys know better and more about this stone) , as I felt uncomfortable with this issue and the fact that I wasn't sure about the authenticity of the stone and it might have been a Tennen Toishi Suita (which may have not been suitable for a razor, but rather swords). But I am in the market for an authentic Nakayama Asagi (which I may have found through a reliable source...we'll see if it pans out end of month or so).

If (and only if) I land this Asagi, would you gentlemen recommend using a buffered water (sodium bicarb etc...) to bring the pH to somewhere closer to pH8 or so before honing?

Maybe, I can collect the runoff from the honing next time and take it to lab and take an accurate pH measurement there...I have access to a ton of pH papers (of various sensitivities and ranges) as well as a very sensitive pH meter.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

It might be an electrolytic process. Robert - you use filtered water but I don't think that is the the same as ph neutral steam distilled water - filtering usually only removes particulate matter, depending on the filter of course - I don't know what you are using.

A good electrolyte is water, which contains oxygen, and either a salty or acidic concentration. If you use distilled water (ie - get rid of one variable right from the start), then the only things affecting the ph value of the water is what it comes into contact with - the stone, the container, the razor and the tape, for instance. Of these, the stone must have the biggest impact. So - your stone is either particularly acidic or alkaline (salty).

As japanese sword polishers advocate the use of bicarb then the stones they use must have an acidic nature. But, as the stones are all 'individual' the pH value must differ from stone to stone. I guess we can say there is a range from high to low acidity, and this will leach out of the stone into the water (electrolyte) to increase its potential for causing rust.

What you are describing Robert sounds like exposure to an acid-rich electrolyte - acids remove metal and promote pitting, whereas salts just convert the oxidised metal that is there. If your water is simply filtered then it may be acidic (below pH 7) and add to the problem. Water with a low pH is known to be corrosive and to carry metal ions, including iron.

A rough estimate can be made by assessing whether the water is soft (acidic) or hard (alkaline). Hard water leaves soap scum, a film on the surface of hot drinks, furring of kettles.

I have a couple or three japanese natural stones and some pH testing papers (much more sensitive than the old litmus papers) somewhere - if I can find them I'll see what the reading from stone to stone is.

But this is just theory! It could equally well be due to some obscure arrangement of the celestial bodies... it didn't say "on no account hone any razors today" in your horoscope, did it?

Regards,
Neil

Neil,

You have brought up a very important point. Whether you are using Ceramic stones or Natural stone you should be using Distilled Water. I would not put any other water on my Jnat's. There are just too many different chemicals in the regular tap water today to risk my big dollar stones. There's enough things in life working against the stones to include impure water. I use a squirt bottle and wipe my stones with paper towels. When changing slurries I spray off the stone over the sink and rinse it well before moving to the next stage. Anyway thats how I do it. Might be a little overboard to some.

Stan

In my (genuinely) humble opinion, people are over-thinking this with regard to distilled water, acidity, and such. This has happened to me when using tape on high carbon knives to avoid scratches. I believe it's just the result of water getting under the tape and being *trapped* there for > a couple of minutes. I've always been able to polish out the marks without too much trouble, but I've stopped using tape.

The only solution I can imagine would be use to use a skin-tight stretchable waterproof tape that left absolutely no gaps, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.

I'm looking at my dovo right now that has exactly what you describe. it also occurred on the tape line after honing. After much deliberation, I decided that i didn't care that much