Thread: Thoughts on bevel setting and sharpness tests for newbies...

I am going to preface this by saying that I still consider myself to be a relative newbie honer. I have been at it for about 8-9 months and have honed probably 100 razors or so. I have gone from beating my head against the wall in frustration to being able to put nice shaving edges on about 90% of the razors I try to hone with no trouble at all (the other 10% leave me beating my head against the wall still...)

I thought it might be useful to some of the guys that are just starting out at this if I shared a little bit about what I've learned.

First: If you can meet up with someone that is good at honing, DO IT!!! That alone would have probably saved me three months of headaches. I live about two hours from Randy T. and I never managed to find the time to meet with him, despite many gracious offers. I did talk to him on the phone once, and that hour long conversation helped me more than reading through everything in the wiki twice over.
One important thing that you'll get from facetime with a honer that will be difficult to learn on your own is a means to gauge how good your edge is at each step in the process.

That brings me to point two: ALL of the tests for sharpness must be calibrated to an INDIVIDUAL. What works for me to say that I'm done at the 1k level may or may not work for someone else. For me, a razor is done at the 1k when it shaves arm hair. I know to check it for that because water flows over the edge on my honing stroke. I don't have the sensitivity required in my thumbpad to determine when it's there by feel. Some people feel the edge, some people shave arm hair. Some people use the TNT. When all of those people do that, they know what they are looking for, for them personally. Your arm hair may or may not cut well at the 1k level. You may or may not be able to feel a good edge with TPT or TNT. But... YOU HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO TEST THAT WORKS FOR YOU!
That brings me back to spending time with someone that knows what they are doing. By feeling their edges at different points in the process you can begin to calibrate these tests to you. I had to do it the hard way; trial and error until I figured it out. There is no other way to calibrate the tests if you don't have edges to feel at various points in the process.
Hell, I even tried licking the edges to see if I could get useful information. I didn't get useful information, and they don't taste too good either.

Point three: PUT DOWN THE MICROSCOPE! Your microscope can tell you if you have micro-chips at the edge. It can also tell you if you have multiple bevels. It *might* tell you about scratch patterns, depth of scratches, and if your bevel is set. It can just as easily fool you about those things. Yes... YOUR MICROSCOPE CAN LIE TO YOU. I keep meaning to find time to put together a video of microscoped edges and how the light plays on them. By tilting a blade a fraction of a degree I can make 1k scratches look like 8k scratches. I can show you blades that look like they have a perfect bevel set, but that won't shave arm hair (and won't shave anything else if progressed through the grits). Feel free to pick up your microscope to check for chips, or as a curiosity about scratch patterns. The microscope should NOT be used to determine when it's time to move to the next stone in your progression. You need a calibrated test to determine that. No one can tell you what that test will be. You need to either meet with someone and learn a test that works for you (see point one), or beat your head against the wall until you get it.

I applaud your success and I concur with the first two points, but good sir may I suggest that you continue to use your microscope, it is a valuable tool.

Good opportunity to make my first post (bad timing in this specific forum, but timing was never my thing )

About 6 weeks ago I decided to delve into the mystery of the straight razor. After taking a look at this forum and buying a 5/8 Dovo online, I emailed Randy (completely cold from my work email) with a quick hello and request for his time, solely for information purposes. The next week I spent a solid 3 hours at his house visiting this gentleman, viewing some of his staggering collection of razors, and being shown first hand how to patiently hone a blade. He treats honing like a fine art and is so clearly knowledgeable without even trying.

Originally Posted by HNSB

Point three: PUT DOWN THE MICROSCOPE! Your microscope can tell you if you have micro-chips at the edge. It can also tell you if you have multiple bevels. It *might* tell you about scratch patterns, depth of scratches, and if your bevel is set. It can just as easily fool you about those things. Yes... YOUR MICROSCOPE CAN LIE TO YOU. I keep meaning to find time to put together a video of microscoped edges and how the light plays on them. By tilting a blade a fraction of a degree I can make 1k scratches look like 8k scratches. I can show you blades that look like they have a perfect bevel set, but that won't shave arm hair (and won't shave anything else if progressed through the grits). Feel free to pick up your microscope to check for chips, or as a curiosity about scratch patterns. The microscope should NOT be used to determine when it's time to move to the next stone in your progression. You need a calibrated test to determine that. No one can tell you what that test will be. You need to either meet with someone and learn a test that works for you (see point one), or beat your head against the wall until you get it.

I disagree.
The microscope is a tool, just as a hone is a tool. You can use it right or wrong but if you use it wrong, or for the wrong purpose, don't blame the tool and set it aside. I assess sharpness with my thumb. I don't use the scope to determine my progression, but I NEVER leave my 1k without checking the full length of the edge, and I never will.

Also, there is a huge difference between what is seen in a single photo and what is seen live in a microscope. I hold the blade under the objective and yes, I tilt it. Sure, tilting changes the way that light reflects off the bevel. That's exactly why I tilt it, so that I can see the edge from all the angles.

I worded that poorly...
I was not trying to say that the microscope is useless. The point I was trying to make is that, especially for a newbie, you shouldn't rely on a microscope to tell you where you are at in your honing progression.

I fell into that trap early on, and would get frustrated when I had what I thought was a good edge that just wouldn't shave. I was reliant on the microscope to tell me about the status of my edge, and that hindered me from learning reliable methods of checking it for awhile. I have seen posts from other honing newbies that have done the same thing, "my bevel is set because it looks good under the microscope, but..."

More recently I was driving myself nuts about the scratch patterns left by my various finishers, and that they didn't look like the ones I've seen pictures of. I found out that it was a problem with my lighting.
I don't blame the microscope for any of this. The point is that until a newbie understands exactly what they are looking at in a microscope, the limitations of what they can see, and how to interpret that information, it can hurt their progress at learning to hone more than it helps.

I only use the scope to assess bevel setting. I don't give a damn about scratch pattern and I see no need to use a scope after the bevel, so on that point I agree with you.

HNSB..... it is good to see your making progress! A 90% success rate at this early stage is excellent! We do need to get together soon. I will be on a road trip starting Sept 27 and be back in town after Oct 15. Lets get together after that.

Joel.... good to see you posting here & hope to see you again also.

Thanks to both of you for the compliments.

Microscope..... I fervently agree that a scope will not tell you when the edge is sharp. The primary use is as HNSB stated, looking for micro-nicks, looking for dual bevels based on the coloration, the uniformity of the scratch pattern for both the full length of the edge ( gives you feedback on the consistency of your honing stroke) and the full width of the bevel( when the scratches do not go all the way to the edge then you have not completed the shaping of the bevel).
It is a tool and as such has limitations. Lighting is one of them!


Gotta go,

Microscope is a very helpful tool. If person knows how to use it.
if you are trying to figure out by watching to the bevel how sharp your blade is then Sorry that is not microscopes mistake.
if you have a good quality electron microscope which you can use to see the edge of the blade that will be priceless tool.
I am sure it is out there but price is so high we may dream about it.
Basically what straight razor honing people uses 20x,30x.60x or may be 100x to check the bevel.
there is any chips ,all length of the blade has contact with the stone etc,
It saves you time not miss chips basically.
some of you lucky live close to Randy.
Try to meet him and learn from him will help you tremendously.
gl

I have never bothered dreaming of any electron microscope, much less a good quality one! I use a stereo-microscope with a maximum magnification of 64X, but I generally use it in the range of only about 20X. That shows me everything I need to see.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I applaud your success and I concur with the first two points, but good sir may I suggest that you continue to use your microscope, it is a valuable tool.

I agree. I think you can calibrate visual magnification findings through experience by matching observations with results just as with shaving-based or tactile-based sharpness tests