Thread: Standard Reference Material for Hanging Hair Test

There are many possible, or even probable problems with the FCT. These were accurately discussed above. I am in no way questioning the validity of the arguments made. Only making the point that there still might be a valid use of the FCT.

A scenario...

A newbie starts a "my razor is dull" thread. We tell him how to test his blade using the FCT. He reports that it cuts well at the heel, and not at all at the tip.

That is great information! We won't know at that point whether the razor is shave ready at the heel. But, just knowing that the blade is unevenly sharp is of significant value. And, that is information we usually don't have when helping new straight razor users with dull or "dull" blades.

The FCT probably will never prove shave readiness. Even if this is the case, I suspect the FCT used correctly can be a useful tool.

Originally Posted by LarryAndro

The FCT probably will never prove shave readiness.

We agree..

As everyone keeps saying there is a huge difference between sharp, and shaving sharp, and a quantum leap from shaving sharp to "Shave ready"

I am not even going to get into the difference in finishes, that some people believe make or break a shave...

The Dovo reference was the most perfect example of a useless HHT, by working out an FCT as you guys are calling it, you would be doing the exact same thing....
Now you might ask, "Why are Glen and others so dead set against this"???? which is a valid question...

Here is one reason...


Given somewhere back in this thread:

The ideal FCT would correlate highly with honed sharpness so that it would be useful in identifying the endpoint of honing. One virtue would be the ability to make measurements along the longitudinal axis of the blade to verify uniformity of sharpness. Another would be that it could be used as a qualification test for a "Master Honer" designation, if SRP starts accrediting honers.

Finally, correlation of the FCT with shave-readiness is interesting, because it diminishes the importance of other, unmeasured covariates, such as "smoothiness". There are a number of such covariates possible. One thing I've wondered about is whether there is such a thing as "too sharp". Perhaps a razor that is "too sharp" would dull quickly during shaving (roll the edge), becoming a poorer shaver in the process. Another is erosity of the edge.



Another reason taken from the Wiki..

Standardization of the test.

1. Moisten the hair. This avoid all possible variations in outcome, due to fluctuations in humidity of storage conditions. A good way to do this, is to wet the thumb and index finger, pinch the hair and drag it through. Allow the hair a few seconds to settle.
2. When performing the test, hold the hair at the root side and slightly angle the edge of the razor away from you. This maximizes the possibility for the edge to catch between the cuticle shingles.
3. Scale of possible results:

HHT-0 - shave The hair can be shaved immediately at the holding point. This is strictly spoken not a true HHT, but it does tell us that the edge is capable of shaving. [all other attempts must be made at least half an inch from the holding point] HHT-1 - violin The hair doesn't cut, but it "plays violin" with the edge. This is due to the shingles catching the edge, but it's not sharp enough to penetrate. On a full hollow razor, a faint ringing sound can be heard. On all razors it can be felt with the fingertips that hold the hair. HHT-2 - splitWhen it is dragged across the edge, the edge catches the hair and splits it lengthwise. HHT-3 - catch&pop When it is dragged across the edge a bit, the edge catches the hair and pops it. The severed part will jump away. HHT-4 - pop The hair is popped immediately when it touches the edge. It still jumps away. HHT-5 - silent slicer The hair falls silently as soon as it touches the edge.




Now for those of us that actually read most every thread on the forum, and try and help people struggle through the "Non-rocket" science simplicity of honing(insert sarcasm emoticon)...(SRP has 70,119 unarchived posts on Hones and Honing right now) We have found that reading and statements like this have probably caused more heartache with honing, then any other single thing...

The Statement from new honers and shavers, "I can't get my razor to pass HHT so it isn't going to shave good" has become a joke....

Now you want to basically approach this from the other side and say it the "Hair's" fault...


I swear right now to all the Gods in the Heavens if I could wave my magic wand and erase every single reference of the term HHT from the forum I would... The real joke here is that I actually use my own version of the HHT and believe in it's results....

So this is the standard answer I now give to every Honer that says "HHT"...

Learn to hone a reproducible shave ready edge that you KNOW shaves smooth and comfortable, then and only then adapt, your own HHT to prove it..

Now I should add that if you were to build this FCT and use it to test your sharpness across the blade in say 5-7 spots to show yourself that the razor was sharp, that would actually work :
And would most likely become a great aid in helping new honers learn the importance of sharpness... Just like Dovo's HHT, it would show that the razor is indeed sharp... But just like every other test for sharpness none of them can ever test for "Shave Ready"

I really agree with everything said above, and with every point GSSixGun is making. Seriously. But...

Can you think of anything more subjective, more prone to error and misuse and misunderstanding, more difficult to explain and teach than the TPT! But, we don't dismiss it as useless.

The FCT will be error prone, misused and difficult to explain also. But, it might offer us something we don't have now.

(I've belabored my point enough. Happily bowing out now. )

Originally Posted by LarryAndro

I really agree with everything said above, and with every point GSSixGun is making. Seriously. But...

Can you think of anything more subjective, more prone to error and misuse and misunderstanding, more difficult to explain and teach than the TPT! But, we don't dismiss it as useless.

The FCT will be error prone, misused and difficult to explain also. But, it might offer us something we don't have now.

(I've belabored my point enough. Happily bowing out now. )

Actually, the TPT is pretty easy to teach when you have someone there and can compare different feelings with. It is also pretty easy as most people know what a sharp pocket knife feels like. It is however, not a definitive test for shave worthy at any point and is primarily used at least by me, to determine when to move off the 1K for bevel setting. At the end of the day, I still go through the honing process following this point and determine if the razor is shave ready by test shaving with it.

I think the biggest problem with all the tests is that people are looking for a panacea to produce a definitive test of shave readiness other than shaving. We see people declaring a razor not shave ready every day because it will not pass a HHT or some other test without ever trying to shave with it. We also see pre-determination of the actual shaving test as a result of some of these other tests from people who are attempting their first shave or two.

I'm not sure what the answer is here. This topic has been deliberated on more than any political commercial in recent years. The key for new guys is that when a razor is not sharp, quit trying to shave with it. In most cases you can tell when a razor runs over the beard and leaves a little, that it needs more work. If it runs over the beard smoothly and doesn't take any whisker, it is probably over honed. Like every thing else there are varying degrees here and experience helps you learn just how much additional work might need to be done on a given razor.

To me, there is just no foul proof way to hone other than to learn from every razor and stone you use to try to produce repeatable results that work for you. All the test out there that I have used have simply been indicators and none the ultimate answer...........yet.

Have fun,

Lynn

HwHT
Ok here is the new (Hanging with Hair Test) Test

1. Dip the Hair in your favorite Whiskey. (or drink of choice)
2. Take the Hair out of the liquid and gently blow the smoke of your favorite pipe or cigar on it. (or just gently blow it off if you do not smoke)
3. Delicately put the Hair in a location where it has a good view of your shaving technique.
4. Invite the hair to watch your entire shave including prep, shave, and after shave ritual.
5. Finally politely ask the Hair what is 84 divided by 2, minus 42 ?

If the Hair says nothing, the Hanging with Hair Test has been successfully passed!

After the test enjoy the testing apparatus used steps 1 and 2.
You deserve it after such an exhaustive test procedure.

--Shoki

Honestly, I mean no offense, but I am sick of this topic in general, not just this thread. This is supposed to be about shaving with a sharp blade and as far as I'm concerned, there never will be a decent sharpness test other than the shave.

Hone it and shave with it. If it doesn't shave properly, hone it again. Maybe hone it differently this time. If you don't trust your honing skills, then have someone you trust hone it and then shave with it. What we are spending too much time harping on is what was just a simple trivial task a hundred years ago. Sure it's fun taking all of this stuff to a higher level and I don't fault the desire or attempt to establish an accurate test, but so far I think Shoki's comes the closest.

HHT means nothing, I dont care if your razor can pass the Civil Servants Exam, if it cant shave, it fails!

I don't see any good thing from trying to teach someone a hht, that's just my opinion and I know others don't agree. I have several razors from people that are known for their honing, Sham is one of them, his razors didn't pass for me on a hht and we know his edges. Now my hair has NEVER gotten to pop for a hht, either a hht-1 or a hht-15, it never works. It probably doesn't work for my hair at all and it won't no matter who sent me a razor. I have tried my wife's hair but its thin so that doesn't work neither.

The reason I say this is when I started here almost two years ago I thought the hht was gospel and it lead me to being extremely frustrated and annoyed with straights for months, I even went back to DE razors for a while. It totally confused me and mislead me.

When I hone I shave test, if I shaved already i wait until tomorrow to shave test, that's all.

Originally Posted by Disburden

I even went back to DE razors for a while.

Is that because they were passing the HHT for you?

I've been testing edges with 6 lb., .008 diameter Black Widow - I.G.F.A True Test Micro Thin fishing line for a few weeks now and like the results so far. I got tired of test edges on inside part of my ankles.