Thread: Clem and Japanese Razors.

I was over to the funny farm yesterday and was visiting Clem to see how he's settling in and since a couple of them razors his wife gave me were those strange looking things made by Mr Hewhotookmi and Mr Yougotme or something like that I figured he must be an expert on honing these things so I asked him because Cletus told me he saw on that shaving site you only hone the shaving side or barely hone the other.

Clem said that well, those razors have two sides that are different and that's the way they come. He said if you hone the two sides equally the symmetry of the blade will always remain the same no different that with a western razor. If you do differing strokes you will change the symmetry slowly but surely. I said what about the wear on the razor through daily use, how do you consider that? He said that ain't no wear. Why when you do a typical honing on a mid grade hone in one session you remove more metal than in a decade of shaving.

Now this is coming from a guy strapped in a straight jacket and who just had his electroshock therapy so I don't know. What do you think about this predicament here?

Really when you think about it honing these things is about in the same state as before any of these sites existed and folks were experimenting with Western Straights and how to best hone them. These days many have alot of acquired skill and knowledge but I don't think we have come anywhere near that close with the Japanese Straights. Seriously speaking here I've found when you need to do really serious honing and bevel redos I usually treat the two sides like they were different razors and depending on the condition of the edges the final treatment can be asymmetrical if the edges are out of whack to bring them back to the desired symmetry and in the end to tell you the truth the strokes are about the same for both sides with that caveat that the original symmetry is preserved. Maybe it's the touchups only needing a few strokes where the asymmetrical honing routine is best.

Hmmm. Maybe Clem ain't so crazy afterall. Does that make sense. Take a Western razor and start with a symmetrical blade and hone both sides the same and they stay that way. Do differing strokes and the blade starts to change. No different than with a Japanese. Start with asymmetry and do equal strokes and the symmetry stays the same. Do unequal strokes and it starts to change. Like I said this applies to edges where you don't have to rework the edge a serious amount because of a loss of symmetry whatever it is.

Clem says I'm just talking to myself here. He says you'd better leave before they think you belong here.

So put your thinking caps on here.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Clem said that well, those razors have two sides that are different and that's the way they come. He said if you hone the two sides equally the symmetry of the blade will always remain the same no different that with a western razor. If you do differing strokes you will change the symmetry slowly but surely. I said what about the wear on the razor through daily use, how do you consider that? He said that ain't no wear. Why when you do a typical honing on a mid grade hone in one session you remove more metal than in a decade of shaving.

N.

Japanese razors do have concave in both side. Only they do have size of the concave differences on surface of the blade compare front to back.
Face has more concave to it then back.
Now when we hone the Japanese blade as same as western how Clem suggest in early stages he is correct. you can make even number strokes and use Japanese blade same as western blade.
Only problem is after honing while small concave side of the blade(back) will flatten perfectly. Now you have issues.
there is no way you can hone this blade symmetric anymore.
you must hone face more, a lot more then less early concave side(back)
This is because back of the blade will be perfect flat surface.
This is why you hone face of the blade more and just take Burr out of using back side of the blade.
hope this will be clear enough.

Actually any prolonged honing will cause severe wear to the large convex on the razor. Most vintage and well used Japanese razors have pretty much all the wear on the concave or side with the writing on it. The non writing or convex or front is usually pretty pristine which of course is due to the asymmetrical honing.

The next logical question is, considering only the very cutting edge of the razor, will there be a difference owing to the fewer strokes on one side as opposed to the other and how that translates to differences in shave quality between the two sides.?

See, never listen to a crazy guy.

Agree with Sham. Sharpening the Ura & Omote equally will eventually lead to premature wear & ugly large bevels on the Ura creating the problem you actually want to avoid.
The hollow in the Ura is there to prevent having to sharpen large areas of hard steel. I don't know if they do it on razors but on chisels & knives the blade is hammered (Ura -Dashi) to recreate the hollow when there is that much wear.

Just to get things straight, which side are you guys calling the front, which the back?

EDIT: Just did some looking around and realized that I was wrong...so apparently, it's like this:

Back-stamped-concave-"Ura"

Front-unstamped-convex-"Omote"

...right?

Correct ... except they're both concave

Originally Posted by heirkb

Just to get things straight, which side are you guys calling the front, which the back?

EDIT: Just did some looking around and realized that I was wrong...so apparently, it's like this:

Back-stamped-concave-"Ura"

Front-unstamped-convex-"Omote"

...right?

You are right . this is how it has been called always.
i called both side concave to explain better.
If you pay attention to Japanese blade there is no convex side.
it is called such because to compare to concave side- front side.
Front side has huge concave to compare back side.
this is why people calls back side convex side.
Did i make any sense?

That is a good point. Although I think I need Clem to clarify his thesis. The first thought that comes to my mind is that the idea that honing one side will change the geometry of a blade. I'm not sure that is true. Eventually I think honing on one side alone will effect the overall bevel equally on both sides.

It makes for some interesting experiments. It does certainly bring into question why exactly (and not assumptively) straight razors (Eastern vs. Western) are honed in vastly different methods to achieve the same goals. Has anyone ever tried taking a new Western razor and only honing one side? And kept at it?

I think you could create a single shaving sided straight razor that way, simply because you'd only have one side well polished. Don't know though.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

That is a good point. Although I think I need Clem to clarify his thesis. The first thought that comes to my mind is that the idea that honing one side will change the geometry of a blade. I'm not sure that is true. Eventually I think honing on one side alone will effect the overall bevel equally on both sides.

It makes for some interesting experiments. It does certainly bring into question why exactly (and not assumptively) straight razors (Eastern vs. Western) are honed in vastly different methods to achieve the same goals. Has anyone ever tried taking a new Western razor and only honing one side? And kept at it?

I think you could create a single shaving sided straight razor that way, simply because you'd only have one side well polished. Don't know though.

Well enter the microtome. Essentially a western razor with one side. So if you sharpened a typical western razor on one side only would it slowly become a microtome?

Japanese straights are really hard to compare to the western counterparts because they are so different and the symmetry of the thing needs to be maintained and considered each time you work on one. In addition to the obvious differences from one side to the other there is also the curvature or canting of the blade towards the side with the writing on it. I've seen vintage blades where that canting was really worn to the point the razor was useless. It's not like a western razor with extreme spine wear where it may still be serviceable. I think restoration on Japanese straights can be more limited.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think restoration on Japanese straights can be more limited.

Agree and + if your Japanese blade has been sharpened wrong in first place to fix that problem is PITA TOO.
i remember ones took me 8 hours to fix .Even then i wasn't happy with end result.
there is very limited space to fix errors on Japanese blades.
Western you can do so much even grind them.