Thread: Coticule after 12K?

I have heard somewhere the suggestion that after the 12K hone, whether Chinese or Naniwa, that the coticule will still make for a smoother edge. On the other hand, I hear the typical coticule said to be approximately comparable to an 8K-10K stone.

So...is there a case for going from a 12K finishing stone to the coticule?

Gentlemen, your arguments and experiences pro and con please!

Some, but very few IME are comparable to 10-12K ish levels. I have had 5 different cotis and only 1 is near (but not quite) an Escher. What may happen with some cotis, is that they smooth out any harshness from a Nani 12k, and although I do not have one myself, I have felt the edge of a 12K and liked it alot, so theres probably little point.

IIRC I have read Lynn say few stones including Eschers beat 12K Nani, or something along those lines, do not quote me exactly!

Bottom line, I cant imagine many cotis would ameliorate a Nani 12Ks edge, but thats only my opinion, others I am sure differ!

Sorry to be vague, but the Chinese hone is not 12k and the finish you get off of it varies by the individual piece of rock you acquire. This applies to your particular coticule as well. You're going to have to experiment with your own rocks, because the only one of the three that is predictable is the Naniwa 12k. This is because, for the most part, your Naniwa 12k is similar to my Naniwa 12k, but your coticule versus my coticule...

Originally Posted by Scipio

Some, but very few IME are comparable to 10-12K ish levels. I have had 5 different cotis and only 1 is near (but not quite) an Escher. What may happen with some cotis, is that they smooth out any harshness from a Nani 12k, and although I do not have one myself, I have felt the edge of a 12K and liked it alot, so theres probably little point.

IIRC I have read Lynn say few stones including Eschers beat 12K Nani, or something along those lines, do not quote me exactly!

Bottom line, I cant imagine many cotis would ameliorate a Nani 12Ks edge, but thats only my opinion, others I am sure differ!

Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry to be vague, but the Chinese hone is not 12k and the finish you get off of it varies by the individual piece of rock you acquire. This applies to your particular coticule as well. You're going to have to experiment with your own rocks, because the only one of the three that is predictable is the Naniwa 12k. This is because, for the most part, your Naniwa 12k is similar to my Naniwa 12k, but your coticule versus my coticule...

I would be agreement here...

I come off the 8k level when I finish with any Natural, I want something there to "improve" on... That doesn't sound right but I think the meaning is there...


Edit:

What I mean is IMHO the 8k level is the entry level into shaving sharp, you should be able to comfortably shave of a Norton, Naniwa, or Shapton 8k so this leaves a bit of room to "finish" the edge on a natural stone...
The Naniwa 12k is a "finisher" in it own right, so basically you are re-finishing or perhaps even un-finishing the edge going to a Coticule... Hope that clarified it a bit

What it would do after a Chinese stone, is a best guess, like Ron said both stones are naturals, so only you would know, and even if it worked it would not be repeatable for everyone...

It wont make the edge sharper and I guess it'll basically "replace" the 12k Naniwa edge with a coticule edge.

Remember grit size isnt the be all and end all of razor sharpness. A razor should be shaving sharp coming off the 8k stone and the finisher is basically aiming to eke out as much smoothness as possible from the edge and provide that final feel. Or at least thats how I think of it..!

Just to ellaborate on Stu's point - if the razor was not already shaving sharp of an 8k before moving to the 12k, the coticule afterwards would not make much difference. However, what it could do is necessary polishing work that was not necessarily achieved before moving to the 12K. Under those circumstances and those circumstances only (for 90 of coticules) it would improve a 12K's edge - as it wouldnt really be a 12Ks edge.

And to restress that the 12K is a finisher which could only ever make an already shave ready edge even sharper.

The coticule on the other hand (with the correct honing hand) could sharpen before and finish after an 8K.

Further more, with finishers it can be hard to really compare sharpness. If, for arguements sake a certain coticule was tested and accepted to be 10K level, only a very experienced user is going to feel and appreciate the very subtle differences between finishes left on a razor.

Its not as simple as the difference between 12K and 10K = 2K, therefore 2K/10K = 20% sharper, and going onto conclude that a 12K is therefore 20% sharper than a known 10K; because it is not progressive. ie. the curve for sharpness diminishes (flattens) after 8k. Round about 95% of final sharpness is achieved at 8K, finishers ontop do not make a proportional difference to sharpness with their 'grit' differences.

By the same way that a 4K is NOT half as sharp as an 8K - it is probably about 70% as sharp.

AND when it comes to naturals, it is not an exact science, whereas it could well be with synthetics, untill you take into account that all steels will respond differently, and further appreciate that honing hands will differ....I'll shut up now!

From what I have read the general saying is that the coti edge is not sharper but smoother than the 12k.

From my experience I know that some razors I have were first honed up to a 10-12k on synthetics. For me the edge was sharp but not smooth. After a few laps on my coti it would smooth out the harsh edge and give me smooth shaves.

Originally Posted by LawsonStone

I have heard somewhere the suggestion that after the 12K hone, whether Chinese or Naniwa, that the coticule will still make for a smoother edge.

I think it could happen.
You mean smoother edge You don't mean sharper edge.?
you can dull the edge and make it smoother .
Smoother and sharper will be different conversation.
gl

If you have come to enjoy a coticule edge I think there could be some "improvement". This is usually the case when an edge feels harsh (or too sharp or whatever - not trying to start a debate over semantics here); a few laps on a coticule can go a long way toward smoothing out an edge.

Think of it as the best of both worlds. A level of sharpness that is perhaps more than a coti alone can achieve combined with coti smoothness - sounds good to me.

There's a big difference between smooth sharpness and smooth because the razor was dulled a bit. Coticules can do both if you don't have good techniques going for you which can make it hard to tell the difference.

Imo test shaving after the 12k is important because harsh 12* edge may mean you didn't get the most from it..