Thread: The science of pyramids?

X, thanx for typing that instead of me. I didn't had the time AND energy to do that one more time...

Nenad

Originally Posted by xman

Athough the whole blade on a perfectly flat edge (and we can argue about how many edges are perfectly flat) will assumedly touch the hone completely, it will not have equal pressure contact with the hone along its entire edge by simple virtue of the fact that the tip is farther away from the force (your hand) than the heel.

You're assuming that you hone like you do with the x-pattern. When you go straight across, you can place a finger at the center or even use two hands. Either way, an inexperienced honer has much bettr control and a much easier time of applying even pressure.

It will cut all shaped edges well, even irregularly shaped blades. And smiles are normally either made from the 'Rolling Hone' method or intended out of the factory, but I assume Joe meant irregularly made smiles or perhaps 'smirks' as a result of a scything motion on the hone.

Agreed. If you made the edge in a plane (that's what I meant by straight), you can hone straight across.

This has not been my experience as I have said above regardless how hard I try. The edge of the hone also stymies me with the regular 'X' motion which is why I stick to the Rolling Hone.

If by rolling you mean scything, I can't imagine how you consisntently get the edge in one plane. That's what causes all those damaged edges on old razors that turn up at the tip. If you're trying for a smile, the way the baber manual teaches that will still give you a plane edge is to add swipes at the ends of the blade and use more pressure there. As long as you don't overdo it, yoou'll even get and equal width band.

I can't imagine how a straight across, heel leading motion could be any easier or could not give you an even edge (with the slightest bit of care). You could even use two hands and apply equal, but light pressure with a finger at each end of the blade. It's slow, but perfect for a newbie. For speed, I'll use an x-pattern, but even then I'll extend a finger over the spine and slide it to keep it in the middle of the portion contacting the stone.

Originally Posted by superfly

X, thanx for typing that instead of me. I didn't had the time AND energy to do that one more time...

Nenad

I wish you had. Please explain how it's physically impossible to get a flat edge when you're working with a flat blade and a planar stone, and you're touching the entire edge to the stone and applying equal pressure. If you find that so difficult with going straight across with heel leading, how do you manage it with an x-pattern when little, if any, part of the blade is in contact with the stone during a stroke?

I don't doubt you can do it after all the practice you've had, but how do you expect a newbie to do it? I think they deserve to be taught the easy way first.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I wish you had.

OK.

Untill now, I've had a chance to work with numerous razors, new, eboy finds, junk razors, and used razors honed by expert members here. They have variety of blade shapes and grinds, even edge curves. I manage to keep all of them shaving sharp, using various techniques.

First, about straight edge razors. I've had a chance to examine 4 newly forged blades with straight spines (indicating straight cutting edge), DOVO's and Henkells, and one older blade (ERN C&S), with no hone wear. All blades had very slight smile (edge curvature with the more pronaunced middle section), and the C&S even had a slight frown (opposite to smile, in geometry too ;-) This is due to bevel creating technique the factory workers use. You can see this process in the three videos we have on this site (linked somewhere) two from the DOVO factory, and one from the TI. The workers in the videos are creating the bevel on horizontal abrasive wheel, where they hold the razor horizontaly, with one hand! and the razor is moving to and from the center of the wheel. At the latest DOVO video, the lady who is doing sharpening, is not even holding the razor flat at the stone, but with very small angle, and is moving it across the stone. Now, you can clearly see that this is not going to produce straight edge, no matter how hard they try for two reasons: First, the technique of the sharpening I've already desribed, and second, the horisontal abrasive wheel they sharpen on is never flat and true. Yes, it sounds strange, but I doubt they are taking the stone off, and flatten it after every 5-10 razors. That is the reason they developed the sharpening technique, other wise, you wont be able to sharpen the razor at all. The technique described is not bad, it just can't produce PERFECTLY straight edge.

Now, when newbie gets his brand new stainless steel DOVO micarta razor, and his brand new Norton hone, the problems start. The razor, is offcourse, not sharp enough to shave, and the newbie is even having problems to keep his blade in contact with the stone when honing. The obvious honing method a clever newbie is gonna try is pushing his brand new hard as hell razor straight through the hone, with two or three fingers laying on the spine, and with ~45 angle to the horizontal axis on the hone. "Hey, this was easy", says newbie. "I only wonder why even after numerous pyramides, cubes, spheres and what not, the razor is not giving me comfortable shave??" I'll tell you why. Because the razor has even slight smile to it, and the 4000 side is not abrasive enough to straighten the geometry of the edge, especially with the light-as-a-feather pressure you are using. That is also why your razor is passing the damn HHT only on couple of places, which are, you guessed it, the ones that are in contact with the stone.

Now, again, I'm not saying there is no way to create a straight edge, and maintain it that way, if you wish. There is. Here's how I do it. Mind, on the razors with straight spines only.

Take a glass plate, the same one you got for lapping your Norton stone, per suggestion of mr. Brian Donofrio. Go to the store, and get your self couple sheets of sandpaper, grits: 500, 800, 1200, and maybe 2000, if you are not lazy. Cut them to stripes 3 inches wide. Get a double stick tape, same dimensions as the stripes you just made, and leave it for ~1mm, or in lame measures ~1/16 wider on each side. I'll tell you why later. Stick the tape to each of the four sides of the glass plate, and stick the sandpaper to it. Firmly. You should have sandpaper with a DS tape slightly protruding from each of it's sides. Now, take a glass of water with you, sit comfortably, and with glass plate on your table top, start honing. First, ofcourse, on the roughest grit. Hold the razor with one hand on the tang, and the other two or three fingers on the spine. Flat on the hone, with the edge ~45 degrees to the longer axis of the makeshift hone, i.e. sandpaper. Start pushing the razor straight up and down the "hone", like you normally do, edge leading. You can aply some pressure, say from 1-2 pounds, per Randy's recipe. This is the only method for straightening the edge. And it has to be done this way, on coarse grit, and preferably on new sheet of sandpaper. You can do it on the coarse Norton or other stone, but by the time you finish, your arms will fall of, and you will wear the stone uneavenly, which returns you to the start. When you are done with the 500 grit sandpaper (your razor has nice and even scratch pattern all the way trough the edge) you do the same thing on the 800 sandpaper. Than the 1200. Even 2000, if you wish so. I forgot to tell you about the water and the lenght of the DS tape. Trough the entire process, you should keep the sandpaper very wet. Now, don't overdo it, we don't want water all over your keyboard, only to keep the metal particles floating all the time. The DS tape should protrude a bit, and should be stuck firmly to the glass and the paper to keep the water out of underneath the sandpaper, otherwise, the paper will bulk up from underneath, and screw your effort for nice and even edge. Where were we..? ah, the Norton stone. Take the Norton from your bucket/pan/batthub/sink, wherever he was soaking, and put it on top of the table. You might grab some rest inbetween, because you must be honing for atleast an hour now, and your arms and concentraion are giving up. All rested? good. Let's continue. From now on, it is rather straight forward (pun intended). You repeat the same motion on the Norton stone, 4000 grit. After you are certan you have removed all of the 1200-2000 grit scratch marks, you flip the stone and repeat on the 8000 grit. The pressure should be a bit less, at around 0.5 to 1 pound. From now on, you should look at the edge, and visually check your progress. I like to see for that black polish all the way through the edge. If necesary, go back to the 4000. I don't do pyramides, I just go back when needed. It can take up to 30-40 on the 4000, and 50 on the 8000. Take this numbers loosely, I havent counted. Now, when finishing on the 4000 and the 8000 sides, you might start honing X pattern, you will get a better edge. I do it anyways. If not, keep straight, and post the results. The last two razors I have done this way shaved me great right off the 8000 side, with no returning to the stone. First try. I must be getting good at this honing business...

Now, I will say this: The straight push along the Norton with angled blade is not a honing method. Atleast, it is a fauly one. That is method for restoring straight edge back to it's intended state, and after doing this, the regular X pattern should be used, no matter how hard it is to learn. It will impart a very slight curve, which as Joe said, can be controlled with pariall honing. The X pattern is the only way barber's association advocates in their books and manuals, and that is derived from years of experience.

Now, those beautifull curves...
You cannot establish or maintain the curved edge on the razor with the above described method. It will make your razor ugly, and less functionall. So, here is the dilemma. Either learn to hone X pattern, holding the razor with one hand, or start saving for someone to do that every time your razor starts to pull. Honning X pattern, the olny right way is described in the barber's manuals, found in help files here. I won't describe it in detail...

Rock and Roll...
This method was mentioned by our dear member Xman, some of you might conlude he developed the X pattern, by his name, but nooo, that is not the case I don't think this method is necesary, if you do the X honing right. Start honing with slover, deliberate motion, to paraphrase "be one with the blade" and you will develop a feel what part of the hone is honing more, less, not evenly. For extremely curved blades, bring the tip of the razor more to the edge of the hone, some 3/4 of inch should stay on the hone. That should take care of it.


Now, I'm sorry for the longish post, and I hope I made things more clear (or muddy, it's good to, it makes you think) for some of you...

In Lynn's words: Have fun. And thanx to Lynn who made all this possible...

Nenad.

oh, btw, my DOVO Micarta is shaving me jeest fine now, after 1 year of trial and error, and it's among my favorite shavers...

This has been an intersting thread! Thanks to all for the contributions. Now I will set back and read it all again and get back to you all in a week or two! I hope we have not scared the new guys away!

oh, thanx to Randy who pointed me to using various grits of sandpaper, and the straight push in one of our Skype phone talks. As always, I enjoyed Randy's knowledge and wisdom...

Appendix to my already long post:

I never use the straight push after the edge is reestablished. When I get that part done, I refresh my razor with normal X pattern honing.

thanx,
Nenad

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I can't imagine how a straight across, heel leading motion could be any easier or could not give you an even edge (with the slightest bit of care). You could even use two hands and apply equal, but light pressure with a finger at each end of the blade. It's slow, but perfect for a newbie. For speed, I'll use an x-pattern, but even then I'll extend a finger over the spine and slide it to keep it in the middle of the portion contacting the stone.

As I've said coming off the close edge of the hone using the 'X' pattern always gets me. It only takes one twitch and there goes my whole edge. With the heel leading, the whole edge can be supported by the stone at all times if there are minor fluctuations in my grip, and with the straight razor edge even microscopic changes will have an effect. And the rolling is NOT scything, the rolling change occurs in the vertical plane only and not the horizontal plane.

What you say about using two hands to help stabalise sounds good, but it has consistently failed to provide me with a shaving edge. Just my experience.

Originally Posted by superfly

Untill now, I've had a chance to work with numerous razors, new, eboy finds, junk razors, and used razors honed by expert members here. They have variety of blade shapes and grinds, even edge curves. I manage to keep all of them shaving sharp, using various techniques.

Now, I will say this: The straight push along the Norton with angled blade is not a honing method. Atleast, it is a fauly one. That is method for restoring straight edge back to it's intended state, and after doing this, the regular X pattern should be used, no matter how hard it is to learn. It will impart a very slight curve, which as Joe said, can be controlled with pariall honing. The X pattern is the only way barber's association advocates in their books and manuals, and that is derived from years of experience.

I don't claim to be a honing expert, but I do have about 100 successful razors under my belt, and three quarters of them have restored edges. Some were badly chipped, and some were poorly honed when I got them. There have been a few, not many, where I was unable to restore to a planar edge.

I have many Dovos, mostly bought new, including a Micarta which was not. I also have many other brands that I bought NOS or new, including the SRP TI and a few other TIs. All the razors I've seen that are new or NOS are close enought o flat to be honed without a problem. If I received a new one as far off as you describe, I would return it.

I also have quite a few razors honed by Lynn, David Uthe, Bill Ellis, Tony Miller (hierphoto), John Crowley, Robert Williams, and probably a few honemeisters I've forgotten. Every one of those razors will match up exactly (by eye) with a flat surface. I also have razors that were honed with a smile, for example, a new Phillie, and they too will line up on a flat surface. I would venture to say that every razor I own probably does, except those that were ruined by poor honing. Even then, I have been able to restore many a blade. And it's not nearly as tough as you suggest if you use diamond hones. So, I'm not prepared to say it's impossible or even difficult. And I surely wouldn't discourage a newbie from trying to maintain a flat edge on a razor he bought new.

Before you say that the straight push along a hone is not a honing method, look at some of the European (German) sites, where it's used almost exclusively (usually two handed). Since you mentioned Brian Donofrio, he also does it that way. You will find very few, if any, really old razor hones (and no barber hones) that are wide. That was the main reason for the x-pattern. The barber manual also shows the tooth pattern it produces, and that pattern is especially well suited for shaving with the tip leading or with a slight sliding motion, which is what they recommend. Those are the only two real benefits for using the x-pattern.

The scratch pattern is duplicated by heel leading when you hone straight across. You can look under a microscope and you will not be able to distinguish the two patterns, assuming you use uniform pressure with both. The only reason for the leading heel is to duplicate the scratch pattern. An inexperienced honer will find it easier to hone uniformly by keeping the entire blade on the stone all the time. He can do that and get the same scratch pattern as the x-pattern by leading with the heel (not 45 degrees, but closer to 20, just like the x-pattern does). As a second choice I would recommend straight across, and the x-pattern would be third, just based on the ease of honing uniformly.

We all have learned the x-pattern at some time. I use it a lot because I use a lot of narrow narrow hones. But when I have a wide one, I'll go to a full surface push across the stone. If you look at some of Lynn's old posts you'll find a discussion of honing in circles when you need to remove a lot of material. When he does that, he lines up the blade with the lenght of a narrow hone so he contacts the entire edge at one time.

You are not doing a favor for newbies by discouraging them from trying full edge honing. Rather, I would suggest they try it and see if it isn't easier for them, since we recommend the wider stone anyway.

Originally Posted by xman

As I've said coming off the close edge of the hone using the 'X' pattern always gets me. It only takes one twitch and there goes my whole edge. With the heel leading, the whole edge can be supported by the stone at all times if there are minor fluctuations in my grip, and with the straight razor edge even microscopic changes will have an effect. And the rolling is NOT scything, the rolling change occurs in the vertical plane only and not the horizontal plane.

What you say about using two hands to help stabalise sounds good, but it has consistently failed to provide me with a shaving edge. Just my experience.

I didn't want to give the impression that I don't use the x-pattern. Since I use barber hones a lot, especially for refreshing, I have no choice.

One type of hone I've been using a lot lately is the different grits of Spyderco. Those hones are long and narrow. For better control on along x-pattern, I hold the handle with my pinkie to support it's wieght and place my index finger on the spine. As I move the hone, I slide the index finger up the spine to keep it centered on the hone's width. It keeps the blade flat with pressure more uniform and avoids mishaps at the near edge.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

All the razors I've seen that are new or NOS are close enought o flat to be honed without a problem. If I received a new one as far off as you describe, I would return it. Every one of those razors will match up exactly (by eye) with a flat surface. I also have razors that were honed with a smile, for example, a new Phillie, and they too will line up on a flat surface.

OK, I now see the problem in our comunication. The razors we are talking about are all flat, meaning they are not warped. But, if there is a curve (smile) to the edge, only small part in the middle of the blade will touch the hone. I have no intention explaining simple geometry to you. Here's a simple test: take your favorite WB Meatchopper, the one with large curve to the edge, lay it flat on the stone, and look at the edge carefully. The middle of the edge is touching the hone, but not the hell and toe.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Since you mentioned Brian Donofrio, he also does it that way.

He also trues the stone after every razor, and strops flipping the razor over the edge...

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

look at some of the European (German) sites, where it's used almost exclusively (usually two handed).

No german site advocates that. Norbert is honing with straight push, but diagonal motion on a small width hone, same thing as the X pattern move.

I see this can go on forever, because you and I talk different language. Newbies can read the posts, try out different methods and see what works best for themelves. When I first found this site, I was the only one asking questions. I had no reference to look at. A big thank you goes to Randy and Kelly who were patient enough to answer them all. Newbies can also benefit from reading the honing forum from the beggining, instead of posting treads that start with "I'm sure this has been answered before, but..." Oh, another thing. The X pattern has not appered out of necesity, because the hones were narrow (nonsence, you think there was no way to make them bigger?) but it was the other way around, they were narrow to suit the X pattern honing style.

Also, this is my last post to this thread.


Nenad