Honing Advice appreciated!

**jefpunk** · 01-21-2011, 06:06 PM

Hi there, thanks for reading through my story, and even more thanks if you can help me out

I'm touching up my razors with a coticule + hanging strop with red paste for a few years now, like I was told to. (But the guy told me other things that later occurred to be untrue).
So after reading a lot over here, and after touch ups not being enough any more to keep some razors sharp enough, I decided to go for a synthetic stone. As the shipping cost to get a Norton 4K/8K to Belgium was rather expensive ($44 if I recall correctly, and then I'm still in the dark about taxes being levied when the stone coming in to Belgium) I decided to buy a Wüsthof 3K/8K (well, it was a bit confusing, it was 1000/2000 French standard, 3000/8000 Japanese standard, which should be about what the Norton is).
So, i lapped the stone with sandpaper, learning with the first strokes, that the grit of the sandpaper contaminated the stone (as dares to happen with the Norton I read), so i used my coticule slurry stone (it was all I could think of) to clean the surface, and than the razor slided smoothly over the surface.
I started doing circles on the 3K side, and after being able to shave arm hair, went through a little pyramid, until it (to my opinion at least) popped arm hair.
A test shave was unsatisfying though. Pulling, not shaving well, so I switched to my well sharp Bartmann, and finished the job, sure to give the honing another try the next day (being today).
I read some more today before starting (Lynns tips & thoughts on honing), and noticed my spine had some pretty uneven wear on it. So today, I decided to tape the spine (no to do any more damage), and take it nice smooth and light, testing a lot, not to do any excessive honing.
40 circles on each side on the 3K gave me a razor that shaved armhair. Though the tip wasn't that good. So i very gently did some 45° with rolling (not exactly rolling, but more what gssixgun shows in his smiling wedge vid (at this point in time I should thank him for the effort put into the vids, in stead of making fun of him... sorry

first and last time, I swear, wish I could hone like that). And so i got the tip shaving arm hair as well. Then I went through the pyramid, starting at 10, achieving a good result on most part of the blade, except on the tip. So I did some more of the "rolling" strokes, until I thought it was time for another test shave.
At first it was comfortable and smooth. Until I went for the second cheeck... By then the razor was about dull enough to sit on it without hurting yourself...
And now I'm a bit lost... I don't know if anyone here has some experience with a Wüsthof hone, though I think the problem has more to do with me, and almost nothing with the stone... Am I over-honing?
Well, as the title says, any advice will be very much appreciated.
Some pics to try and make things more clear.

**nun2sharp** · 01-21-2011, 06:59 PM

My opinion for what it is worth, invest in a Radio Shack microscope. I believe that during the course of your shave the edge crumbled, cant be for sure because I can not see it. For the time being I would suggest light strokes with very little to no pressure, I do not think that there is bad metal along the edge falling apart, I think that the pressure applied while honing may have been too much and weakened the edge. JMO, something to consider but its not gospel.

Beautiful blade by the way!

**jefpunk** · 01-21-2011, 07:53 PM

Thanks for the tip!
I'll take the razor to work on Monday, we have lot's of microscopes there, will take a few pics at X40 over noon. Not taking it for gospel (not much of a catholic...) but it's definitely worth considering.
I'll be back with microscope pics!

**AFDavis11** · 01-21-2011, 10:46 PM

Tough one, as usual. So, I'm not sure about overhoning but generally I have some concerns about what I would call your honing strategy.

That part I'm not really clear on what your strategy is, and what you are actually doing.

Let me also add that I don't understand the phrase "I did a pyramid starting at 10". In proper honing vernacular a single pyramid is indicated such as:

1/5 or 1/15

So I might assume that you did 10 iterations of 1/5.

Would that be correct?

There is certainly inbalanced spine wear on your blade. Taping was a decent idea, but not really needed with the amount of spine wear that you have, and let's see, what else can I add . . . oh, the spine wear from each side is different, which could lead to the razor seeming to be dull on one cheek and seeming to be sharper on the other.

There ya go . . . how'd I do?

**niftyshaving** · 01-22-2011, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by jefpunk

Hi there, thanks for reading through my story, and even more thanks if you can help me out

I'm touching up my razors with a coticule + hanging strop with red paste for a few years now, like I was told to. (But the guy told me other things that later occurred to be untrue).
So after reading a lot over here, and after touch ups not being enough any more to keep some razors sharp enough, I decided to go for a synthetic stone.....
....snip....

The phrase "for a few years now" caught my eye.

I used a coticule for years and nothing more. My razors and my
coticule hone got very comfortable with each other.....

Then one day I lapped my coticule flat and added a Norton 4K/8K combo
to my kit and things went sideways.

A coti and a Norton sharpen differently so after lapping all three hone
surfaces flat I would try some things.

First flat is relative. I would test your coti against the two sides
of the Norton. Draw a light grid on all three surfaces then test to
see if they all mate by test lapping one on the other -- just a little.
Not a figure eight... just run them against each other in the normal
honing direction. Once they are flat there are a couple things to
try.

First just try a Norton 4K/8K pyramid or follow Glens Norton honing
method on Youtube, skip the thumb nail test --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y53SL9QMq6I

**jefpunk** · 01-22-2011, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Tough one, as usual. So, I'm not sure about overhoning but generally I have some concerns about what I would call your honing strategy.

That part I'm not really clear on what your strategy is, and what you are actually doing.

Ah, my idea was, as I dulled the blade quite a bit during experimentations with the coti, to set a new bevel. Which could be done with the 3K side, if I interpreted things correctly

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

So I might assume that you did 10 iterations of 1/5.

Would that be correct?

Ah, that's not what I meant. On the wiki, the pyramid starts at 25/25, then 20/20 ... I, lazy as ever, meant that I started with 10/10 then 5/5 and so on...

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

There is certainly inbalanced spine wear on your blade. Taping was a decent idea, but not really needed with the amount of spine wear that you have, and let's see, what else can I add . . . oh, the spine wear from each side is different, which could lead to the razor seeming to be dull on one cheek and seeming to be sharper on the other.

There ya go . . . how'd I do?

Well, I started on the right cheek, where it started ok, but when I went for a little XTG on the same cheek immediately after going WTG, it started to fail to remove hair... Then WTG on the left cheek just gave me lather on my razor, with maybe 2 whiskers... Where there should have been a nice black lining...
After that, I felt it with my thumbpad, and noticed I would have to use it like a steak knive to be able to cut myself... (which, off course, I did not try

). After that, I didn't bother trying the other cheek again, I just put it aside, and went back to my Bartmann.

As to the unbalanced spine wear (side to side); should I mess up the best side to meet the other side as well?
Going to take a look at it under the microscope anyhow, but thanx for your time! You read & looked carefully, so you did well!

**jefpunk** · 01-22-2011, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

The phrase "for a few years now" caught my eye.

A coti and a Norton sharpen differently so after lapping all three hone
surfaces flat I would try some things.

First flat is relative. I would test your coti against the two sides
of the Norton. Draw a light grid on all three surfaces then test to
see if they all mate by test lapping one on the other -- just a little.
Not a figure eight... just run them against each other in the normal
honing direction. Once they are flat there are a couple things to
try.

I lapped my coti just like I lapped the Wüsthof, just before I buyed the latter. To test them against each other never crossed my mind though.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Note that I let the Coti sit on the shelf for now.

My plan exactly. I've read enough over here that if you can't get a comfortable shave off the 8K, further steps won't help. So my main goal now is to get a close and comfortable shave off the 8K side, and then I still can finish it with the coti to feel the difference...

The vid from gssixgun is what I tried to copy. It all seems so easy when he does it... And yet the result I became is so dissapointing. O well, never give up I suppose

Thanks for the elaborate explanation!

**AFDavis11** · 01-22-2011, 01:17 PM

After you try a few other ideas, consider honing a little more on the side with less spine wear. I would continue to use tape though and try to prevent "messing it up", so to speak.

You should be able to get a good edge without taking off too much spine, particularly if you start now with some tape.

**randydance062449** · 01-23-2011, 03:38 PM

AFDavis11 made an important observation regarding the uneven wear on the spine. It says you are using different strokes and pressures on each side of the blade. My guess is that your honing stroke is also to fast. For reference purposes it takes me about 3 seconds to complete 1 roundtrip lap on a 8" hone. My goal is consistent results on both sides of the blade, not speed.

There is a chance that the edge has been overhoned. To correct this perform 10 back strokes ( spine leading strokes, not edge leading).

Then I would take that razor and perform 25 laps on the odd side of the razor to even up the bevel( use tape since you have already started to) on the 3-4K then some pyramids starting at 15/10, 10/10, 5/10, 5/10, 3/10, 1/10, 1/10 then strop for 50+ laps on a plain leather hanging strop and test shave.

This should give you a better edge. To further refine the edge simply stay on the 8K and perform 10 laps between each shave. You will feel a gradual increase in sharpness.

Just my $.02,

**Disburden** · 01-23-2011, 10:01 PM

What RandyDance said about the pyramids is what I do when I am fine tuning an edge myself. I hone very slowing on the norton once my bevel is set and then when I think that the razor is just going to shave nicely I go to a quick 5/5 pyramid and work my way down from there, I don't start at 15/15 usually because I know I don't need that much from experiences with the hones.

I then move to a finisher, like a Naniwa 12K and Escher, or just a Jnat.

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