Thread: Ain't got the touch :-(

Originally Posted by ericm

I followed Lynn's advice and did 5/8 5/8 5/8 on the N8K/coticule. Stropped 40linen/40leather. The razor didn't pass the HHT any better, but the shave was definitely better. I would rate it a 6.5-7.0, up from a 3-4 before. I guess I have to eat my words... the HHT didn't tell me anything this time.

So, do I leave it at a 6.5-7.0, or do I shoot for a 9? I'll shave with it again, to see if it gets better with a little more stropping/shaving.

I guess I'm the guy who'll say "Bah, humbug." Don't fret too much about the HHT. It's never worked for me on any razor honed by anyone. I think it may just be my fine hair. I still hone razors that shave great. But you do need to find a test that will work for you. Until you do, you'll have to go back and work the razor on a fine hone or pasted strop until it shaves just right.

So what test do you use, Joe, thumb test?

I'm trying to develop the feel for that but am having mixed success. Can the sound of the thumb running across the edge help in determining the sharpness? If yes, how do you compare different grinds?

BTW, if you can't use your own hair, use somebody else's. Maybe you can make new friends this way No, seriously, I have the same problem, so I just use my girlfriend's hair that I steal out of her hair brush.

Redwoood

I'll never understand why people find honing so difficult.............you put your razor and $20 in a box, mail it to Lynn and he will hone it every time, no fuss, no problems, no worries <g>.

Tony (still a better stropper than honer) Miller

Originally Posted by Redwoood

So what test do you use, Joe, thumb test?

I'm trying to develop the feel for that but am having mixed success. Can the sound of the thumb running across the edge help in determining the sharpness? If yes, how do you compare different grinds?

BTW, if you can't use your own hair, use somebody else's. Maybe you can make new friends this way No, seriously, I have the same problem, so I just use my girlfriend's hair that I steal out of her hair brush.

Yes, I use the thumb test, and I agree that it takes time to learn. The sound varies too much between blades, so I find the touch much more accurate. You can practice with a fresh single eedge razor to mget a feel for sharpness. And it's not just that the razor grabs. It will grab before it's keen. When the edge is really sharp the grab is extreme when you brush across thedge very lightly, and you can feel an edge. You can feel that with the single edge blade, but the best way is through actual honing and testing. You can feel the edge forming in successive tests.

Everyone in my family is fair haired, so it wouldn't help to use someone else's hair. My wife's is finer than mine.

Always interesting read, your posts, Joe.

I know how everybody always says that the best test is the actual shave... the only problem is that my skin doesn't like it when I don't give it one day rest - which can delay the whole hone/test cylce quite a bit. That's why I'm really interested in alternative sharpness tests.

What do you do to detect a wire edge ?

Redwoood

Originally Posted by Redwoood

Always interesting read, your posts, Joe.

Thank you.

I know how everybody always says that the best test is the actual shave... the only problem is that my skin doesn't like it when I don't give it one day rest - which can delay the whole hone/test cylce quite a bit. That's why I'm really interested in alternative sharpness tests.

My problem is that it's just too inconvenient to keep jumping back and forth between honing and shaving. I also feel the need to make some effort to prep my face before trying to shave, or I may not be judging the razor fairly. So, I needed a highly reliable test to tell me when to try to shave. Mine works 90-95% of the time. That is, I don't have to go back and shave again that percentage of the time.

What do you do to detect a wire edge ?

LEt me clarify what my test is. It's actually a combination of the thumbnail test and the thumb test that I adapted to my needs. You can find a description of the combined test in a PDF file in my gallery.

You'll find a detailed discussion of the thumbnail and thumb tests at classicshaving.com, in the "how to .... and why" section under stropping and honing. I suggest you read those sections to understand the way the two tests work. Traditionally, the thumbnail test is done while you hone to tel you when to get off the hone, then you never do it again. You go to the strop next, and you do the thumb test to decide when the razor is ready to try a shave.

My modification was to use the thumbnail test on the 4K or medium hone to tell you when you have a good edge. You then move on to the 8K or fine hone and use the thumb test to track your progress. When the 8K stops showing improvement, you move on to the next finer grit, say a 12K or pasted strop. You use that until improvement stops, then you move to a finer grit. You use as many levels as you need to get the edge you want. So, I combine the two tests.

Since you can't use the thumbnail test after you've moved on to the thumb (it will dull the edge at that stage), you use the thumb test to evaluate a razor when you first pick it up. If the razor shows little grab in the thumb test, you drop back to the thumbnail test, until you pass it.

A wire edge is a defect in the edge (like a chip, or a total lack of sharpness), not a sharpness problem, so it's detected with the thumbnail test, after the razor fails the thumb test. I consider a sharpness problem a lackof sufficient sharpness in a well formed edge (so, a totally dull edge, as reflected by the thubnail test is an edge that needs to be created, not one that needs to be refined). You can recognize the wire edge because the edge won't draw smoothly across the thumbnail, but gives a halting, grating sensation. When you read about and work with the thumbnail test for a while, you will learn to recognize all the sensations that are described.

The thumbnail test should be used to qualify the edge first, regardless of which sharpness test (e.g. HHT, thumb etc.) you use. In other words, you need to know you have a nice unchipped, wire-free edge before you start polishing and testing for sharpness. I don't know of any other test that can detect all the edge defects. For example, if the edge shaves poorly, I don't know a more definitive way to determine if it's just dull or a wire edge or a chip(s). In the thumbnail test each of these faults has a distinct sensory characteristic.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

A wire edge is a defect in the edge (like a chip, or a total lack of sharpness), not a sharpness problem, so it's detected with the thumbnail test, after the razor

Maybe I didn't use the right terminology. I meant how do you detect an overhoned edge before the shave, one that is so thin that it will feel very sharp to HHT and (I assume) thumb test, but that will dull very quickly during the shave because the burr folds over.

Despite the silly title that is under my name by now, I'm about as far away from being a honemeister as I am from winning olympic gold in synchronized swimming. And I'm not quite sure which of the two would be easier for me to reach

Redwoood

Originally Posted by Redwoood

Maybe I didn't use the right terminology. I meant how do you detect an overhoned edge before the shave, one that is so thin that it will feel very sharp to HHT and (I assume) thumb test, but that will dull very quickly during the shave because the burr folds over.

The wire edge is the lower extreme of a weak edge, and the only one you can detect easily. The super sharp edge is at the other upper extreme of the weak edge. It seems normal , but requires more frequent refreshing than your regular keen edge. Some (like me) may even prefer it if they don't mind the frequent refreshing.

So, you can see how difficult a question you asked. Like beauty, a week edge is in the eye of the beholder. What I like may be too weak for a guy with a tougher beard. It might not last through his shave. So, we can all agree that a wire edge is bad, and we know how to detect it, but the weakness of the edge you select is a matter of personal choice. I use "weakness", because in the spectrum of sharp edges the razor definitely falls at the weak end, but it also sports the keenest edge.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time. I say "might" because it was not unusual to see an old time barber strop a razor in the middle of a shave. So, he would only go so far in avoiding a weak edge. There was a point where he had to accept it in order to get the edge keen enough for comfortable shaving. Sometimes I would even see the barber sneak a few swipes on a little hone he carried in his pocket.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

gher beard.

All I can tell you is that if you find an edge can't get you through a shave without re-stropping you might consider going for less sharpness next time.

I draw the line at honing. I refuse to refresh the razor for every shave. Every 3-5 I don't mind, because it's only a few (3 or 4) swipes.

Now I am confused about all of this. Are you saying the razor should hold a keen edge through out multiple passes, but you need to hone a razor every third to fifth shave? I would think it would be better for the razor to strop it a few times extra during a shave than hone it so often, even if for only a few swipes. My first razor that I got from a member lasted months before it ever saw a hone from me. I now as many can not leave well enough alone, but just wanted to have this clarified so people don't think they have to hone that often.

Glen