Thread: Trying to hone..face tough???? cant tell the edge in general

A couple things. The end result will be about honing so this may need to be moved but Im gonna talk about the razors edge for a bit so this thread may be better suited for the razor section.

Facts:

I cant tell a good edge. Ive been shaving for several months. My worst shave with my worse razor was better than my best shave with a mach3. While the worst shave.

I can tell a difference between when my stropping is good and bad and if i dont strop at all.

When I do the average test for sharpness I really cant tell a difference between a shape razor and a not so sharp razor. the only way i can tell is the pluck the razor with my thumb. The sharp razor feels and sounds different.

Ive bought many a not shave ready razor and shaved with them with little issues. Not a BBS shave but still a decent one.

The only major cuts have been due to one razor ive got or when i tried a totally off the wall technique.

I sent some razors off to be honed by a member here. I couldn't really tell a difference(the blades might have been ok or only needed a touch up)

Observations:
I sent a razor, in which ive been shaving with since September, to Ken over at rup razor. He honed it. When i got it back it looked the same but plucked different on my thumb. It didnt seem to shave too much better than when i shipped it to him. I know it needed to be honed as he told me the blade was damaged. It didnt look like it to me but I know it had issues because it scratched the hell out of my strop like it had a couple burrs on teh edge. Once i got it back it stropped great and wasnt leaving marks on my strop any more.

I think my face it tough. Ive got another razor that has a small nick on the edge and i can shave with it without damage to my face.


conclusion:

I have know idea what im really doing. I know that some razors are better than others because i can get the smoothest shave from some razors than others. When i pluck them i can tell they are sharper than the average shavers I have that just give me an ok shave.

so why have i typed all this?

I want all my razors to shave like the one or two i have that give me the best shave. I dont really have the money to sent 10 or 12 razors out to be honed just so i can get them back and only achieve what I think is a little bit better shave.

What do i plan to do about it?

Get some hones and make the edge as close as i can to the same feel as teh razors i have that i know shave well.

I guess my question is - does it matter how well my razors are honed compared to other people that hone razors as long as i dont tear the razor up and get a good shave?

I ordered a

220/1000
4000/8000
12000

so i should be good to go with out having to mess with pasted strops. I played arounf with the 4000/8000 today with a razor that was almost shave ready and saw some good results. Im pretty excited about being able to hone them myself.

Originally Posted by simpleman

I guess my question is - does it matter how well my razors are honed compared to other people that hone razors as long as i dont tear the razor up and get a good shave?

I ordered a

220/1000
4000/8000
12000

so i should be good to go with out having to mess with pasted strops. I played arounf with the 4000/8000 today with a razor that was almost shave ready and saw some good results. Im pretty excited about being able to hone them myself.

First of all, all the "sharpness tests" in the world are useless when compared to the one universally accurate test - the shave test. It shaves well or it doesn't. So, if you're not tearing up your razors, and you're getting a good shave, that's all that matters.

As far as getting freshly honed razors back and not being able to tell the difference, that suggests to me that there may be room for improvement in your technique. I could be wrong. You may just have a face that is really not sensitive at all. It stands to reason: There are people with a VERY sensitive face that use a straight because it's the only thing that doesn't shred their face and leave them covered in bumps. For every one of them, there ought to be one of you. Still, I keep leaning towards technique. (maybe your stropping) After "several months" I know I still had a lot to learn, much of which I learned once I started honing.

Speaking of honing, I think that's a very respectable setup you've chosen. If you ask a dozen people what set of hones is best, you'll get at least 20 answers, but most people will recommend a similar setup in terms of grits to start out. The one thing you didn't mention is brand. I'm assuming the combos are nortons and the 12k is a naniwa. Doesn't make too much difference for a first set, but you should make sure they're ones that people have found success with.

I will however, suggest that you still mess with pasted strops. If you've got a fabric strop you can put some chomeox on one side of the fabric and just flip it around when you want or need to use it. Personally, I can tell a HUGE difference between a razor that I've honed up to 16k, and a razor I've honed up to 16k and then put 20 or so laps on my pasted strop.

Oh, and the two other things you might consider adding to you setup:

1. A barber's hone, which you can do for very little money. They're cheap and readily available on ebay or many an antique shop. You can use then for a quick touch-up when a pasted strop isn't quite enough, but the razor doesn't really need to be completely re-honed.

2. A DMT8C. Lapping with sandpaper on your counter-top sounds like a cheap and easy way to go. It's not. It's a gigantic PitA, and makes a huge mess. Plus, it's SLOOOOOOOOOOW. I've got a barber hone that was badly dished when I bought it, and I don't even want to think about how long it took with wet-dry sandpaper on my counter to flatten the thing. I gave up half way through and bought a DMT. It took about 5 minutes to finish on the DMT.

It seems to me that you are pretty well off. When you say you don't know anything, I would disagree.

On the one hand you seem to have a valuable sharpness test. On the other you should try to be careful. Plucking the razors edge so to speak isn't a great method. You may be damaging the edge a strop will apply with your sharpness test.

I would continue honing and working on perfecting your edge. I would study and practice better stropping. A good honing is probably only 90% of the work.

What I have to do is to take the time to evaluate the shave, essentially trying to visually evaluate the amount of whiskers removed with each pass/shave and use that as a guide.

You'll be fine working on the razors yourself.

Honing is a pretty personal experience. Some guys like certain methods over others.

Even a crappy honing job can still give a better shave, at your experience level, than a Mach 3/4/5 or whatever.

At some point in the honing apprenticeship you'll realize that getting a razor sharper is tough, but worth the dramatically extra effort. You'll also discover that most razors that are only slightly duller are that way because of dramatic issues with the bevel. It's like building really pretty houses and eventually discovering that the reason your houses aren't as pretty as the competition is because of the cement your using in the foundation.

And just like honing, stropping is the same. Just because you can introduce improvement doesn't mean you are the best stropper you can be.

Pretty soon though I think you'll get to the point where your edges get sharp enough and delicate enough that plucking them may damage the edge. I think then you'll be set.

You have found a sharpness test that works for you. I would love to hear more about it, how you perform it, what you listen for, the subtleties, etc. It wouldn't hurt me a bit to have an additional sharpness test.

Good advice from AFD and the other gentlemen. I only pluck spokes when I build and maintain bicycle wheels. The old barbers in Newark showed me how to take a razor (full hollow only) and pluck the very tip listening for a ring. Like a musical note. They thought that if the razor rang like a bell it was 'better' in terms of steel and temper. If when plucked it was audibly flat, thunk instead of ringing, it was not as good. In my experience I think that is not necessarily so.

I agree with Alan that you may be damaging your edges with that test. The thumb pad test is a bit trickier to learn than the thumb nail test. It takes an 'educated' thumb pad. Similar in feel to the thumb nail test though. The TNT is used at the bevel setting stage only. Once the razor passes, by offering definite and consistent resistance from heel to point, you do not use it again ln that honing session.

The dull razor will slide across the moistened thumb nail with little or no resistance. The feeling you're looking for is, as noted above, definite and consistent resistance from heel to point. Doing the TPT on the moistened thumb pad the feeling is similar. Holding the razor by the spine of the non dominant hand lay the TP on the edge at the heel and gently move it toward the point. If it grabs lift it and move up and try again, repeating as you work your way up to the point. If it slides , as on the TN, you have to go back to the hone.

Same consistent resistance is looked for in the TPT as you find in a passing TNT only on the thumb pad. You don't push the TP into the edge trying to cut into it. Rather you are lightly moving up the edge to gauge resistance. If it is sharp you'll feel it if it is not you won't. Than there are the hair cutting tests, so don't get hung up on the HHT. Stick with the hair popping.

You might do well to keep a written record of each hone you use for a particular razor and also the number of laps you do on that hone.

Then when you accidently put a good edge on a blade, you merely need to refer to your meticulously recorded notes to tell you what progression you used to achieve that good edge.

It works for me...................

[QUOTE that suggests to me that there may be room for improvement in your technique.][/QUOTE]

Ive wondered that to. To be honest I think stretching may be my down fall. Due to price and finances I got the Norton 4/8 and a Chinese 220/1000 and 12000. For a lapping stone I got a cheap stone in the 300/600 grit range

Pretty soon though I think you'll get to the point where your edges get sharp enough and delicate enough that plucking them may damage the edge. I think then you'll be set.

You may be right. My edges may be just dull enough that the plucking doesnt hurt them.

What I have to do is to take the time to evaluate the shave, essentially trying to visually evaluate the amount of whiskers removed with each pass/shave and use that as a guide.

Ive started doing that. Really paying attention to what works and what doesnt

You have found a sharpness test that works for you. I would love to hear more about it, how you perform it, what you listen for, the subtleties, etc. It wouldn't hurt me a bit to have an additional sharpness test.

I just grabbed a razor to to it to see how I could describe it. It seems its not so much a pluck but more of a slide my finger tips against the edge. Side to side not along the length of the razor.

You might do well to keep a written record of each hone you use for a particular razor and also the number of laps you do on that hone.

ive been doing that mentally with shaving technique but keeping a long is a good idea.

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like a variant of the TPT but an aural evaluation as opposed to a tactile one.